The Good Client And The Good Outfitter Questions

[Swede]

I read earlier this morning Indian Summer's comment about outfitters having a poor reputation with some folks. I was also reading on another forum about an outfitter, that was getting pretty well trashed for a variety of reasons, but not from former clients, or the person who used to work for them. I used an outfitter on a caribou hunt, lived very near another outfitter/guide that is still a friend, and while working for the Forest Service had occasion to deal with outfitters.
Every one of the outfitters I have dealt with had some people who did not like them. None of them were in any trouble with the law or anything like that. Some claimed they were unethical, and others claimed they should have done more for them. The ones I know, I always thought worked very hard for the money they received. None of them are rich by any objective evaluation.
My first question for folks who might be interested is; what makes a good outfitter?

On the caribou hunt there were several folks griping about what appeared to be very trivial matters for a place several hundred miles from a town and very expensive to supply. One of the chief gripers stiffed the outfitter who "sold" him a bottle of whiskey after all his tags were filled.
The neighbor told me story after story about clients who were lazy, wanted to drink and play cards until nearly time to get up, wanted the guide to fill tags, etc. etc. Another neighbor went on an outfitted Montana elk hunt where most in camp again did not want to get up and go hunt. Drinking was their main interest. I could go on an on about lousy clients, so to my second question.
What makes for a good client?

This thread is not intended to start an argument, and I know of no one here that has ever been involved in any of the issues I just described.

[13bonatter69]

Since in a way this question is stemmed off of a thread I started, I am very interested in this thread as well. For me, I think the whole situation is a touch on the hairy side for both parties. As for the guides, we know they have a great task at hand with dealing with clients from all walks of life that have different expectations. I personally believe that MOST guides probably get trashed more than they should. SO, I would like to focus more on your question about "what makes a good client".
I don't have a ton of time in the ELK mountains to base my opinion, but My partner and I paid a lot of attention this year in Wyoming, and I have been on a couple antelope and mule deer hunts where the exact same situations were observed!!
From what I have seen, MOST hunters are LAZY as crap. My partner and I couldn't help but notice all of the people that wanted to literally hunt from the front seat of their truck. We didn't see anyone that really "worked" while they were on their hunt. It seemed like my partner and I were constantly in animals, but we had to walk to get to them. We would have never been in the animals if we hadn't worked for them.
As we were there we met a couple different groups of hunters that knew the area and had been hunting the area for years. One thing that stood out to my partner and I was the "ELABERATE" camps that these guys had set up. It was crazy. My partner and I both drive Toyota Tacomas that do quite well on the two tracks and will "almost" go where the four wheelers will go. The major difference is we can hop in our trucks and circle the whole unit at midmorning covering hundreds of miles trying to locate a new bull to hunt that evening. WE DID THIS WITH GREAT SUCCESS...by the way. We decided our main goal in the future is to be as "MOBILE" as possible.
I think the "average" hunter that books a hunt is probably LAZY to a certain degree. Notice I said "AVERAGE" hunter there, not all hunters obviously fit into this category. SO if you take a lazy hunter and give him to the best guide in the world, he will seriously handicap that guide!
I would say the "PERFECT CLIENT" would be a guy that is smart enough to know that he knows less than his guide! He should also possess a good foundation of a hunter and outdoorsman. A guide doesn't have time to be teaching his client stupid stuff like wind checking, being quiet, proper set up so that you can draw your bow at the right time so that you are not busted! The list goes on and on, but the better the outdoorsman/ hunter, the easier job the guide will have.
I bet the guides have guys every year that want to drink and sleep in, or go to the truck when they really need to check out the TWO next draws. I can only imagine how aggravating it would be to try to guide some lazy sack of crap, that has NO business being out there in the first place only to have to listen to how much smarter he is than the guide. Then after the hunt, get bagged because we didn't harvest!
NO THANKS.........the guides have a VERY hard job, and I wouldn't be able to cut it.
It takes all my partner and I can do to make it fourteen days in the mountains without killing each other, and we are best of friends and business partners. If I had to guide some lazy slob that wanted to drink all night and not take things serious when it was time to hunt, one of us would probably get left up on the mountain!!
For all you guides out there, .........my hats off to you!!!

[Indian Summer]

13bonatter69... I don't think the thread necessarily stemmed from your thread. Maybe somewhat related. It's late here in the east and I'm ready to hit the hay but I had to say real quick that you'd make a hell of a client.

So many good points! "take a lazy hunter and give him to the best guide in the world, he will seriously handicap that guide!" We call that a ball & chain. But.... it comes with the territory & it is our job to do what we can for those folks.

I'll sleep on this, maybe read some feedback from others, put on my combat helmet, and chime in more when I have a minute.

I'll say this: Common sense will tell you that experienced hunters are not the majority of people who book hunts with outfitters. More often than not they are seeking some assistance because they are out of their element and have little to no knowledge about hunting elk. Then divide those people into 2 groups.... ok 3. Ones who did grow up in the outdoors and are somewhat accomplished woodsmen knowing what realistic expectations are. City folks who are not at home in the woods at home let alone in the mountains but are truly self motivated and come prepared and ready to do their best. And those who... regardless of their experience or lack of it think that money can buy anything and therefore shouldn't have to do much to prepare or work hard to achieve their goals in life.... the fast food instant everything crowd.

One more thing: Who do you think despises the crappy outfitters the most? The good ones!

I'll stop there for now. Swede you pot stirrer!

[Swede]

Joe: You are correct about me being a pot stirrer. I don't ever want to be mean, ugly, or nasty. I like to see what hunters think, or to consider things we may not normally ever give much thought to. I really want to keep this forum a place where real topics are discussed in a civil, relevant, and engaging manner. I really get tired of those forums, where people act as though, if you don't agree with them, you must be an idiot. That is not where I want to go.

Don't worry John I have not forgotten how much I enjoy getting you stirred up. I am just giving you a break for now.

[bnsafe]

I will admit I havnt read all the other threads or posts so may be a little behind on this one. I have been on 2 guided hunts. one was really fun, mainly guide put out cams and a blind for pronghorns, we did all the cooking cleaning etc. killed one goat out of 4 guys but had another opp an the weather truly killed us. we still had a good time.
the first guided hunt I went on was a duck hunt in Arkansas, it was a disaster. I shot 3 shells in 4 days of hunting ducks. first morning the guide got lost getting us to the right blind so it was daylight when we got there, then there wasn't any decoys there so he had to go back an get some. the head guide quit the second day I was there. nuff said. I still had a good time. WHY
when I look into a guided hunt I am looking to see new country and experience new things. that is a successful hunt to me. I hunt hard, but killing is just an extra.
before anybody goes on a guided hunt they should have there expectations clearly defined, or they will prob be disappointed. don't look for a 350 bull in a public area with the cheapest guide in the state. might get one but wouldn't expect it. are you there to learn, see new country, see some animals, shoot a representative animal, have fun, etc.

[Jaquomo]

As a former guide:

- First off, be honest about your physical ability and expectations of the hunt BEFORE the hunt starts. Convey this to the outfitter, but most importantly to the guide, since he's the guy you'll be "living with" in the woods all day. Be honest about your shooting ability and range limitations, too. If your expectation is to do a lot of drinking and card playing with your buds, smoking cigars, etc.., be honest about that with the outfitter before you book.

- Be positive and expect to have an experience. There are no guarantees on a free-range hunt. If you're just there to kill something, go to a high-fence ranch.

- Treat your guide with respect, not like some low-wage "hired help". He has a life and a family too, and may be doing it because he just likes being in the woods in the fall. And in his real life away from guiding, he may make more money than you, Big Shot, so shut up about that. If he works hard for you and is good to be around, give him a nice tip. Don't trust the outfitter to tip him. Don't tip him with a knife, unless he really admires yours. Don't tip him with a watermelon after he gets you a monster elk (really, it happened..) Guides are low-paid. Cash is what they need.

- Find out the food situation before you get there.

- Understand and agree with the wounding policy up-front.

- If you happen to get a guide who truly knows less than you do about the game you're hunting - and this isn't uncommon since outfitters often hire young locals during season - don't bitch him out. He's probably an earnest young guy, just lacking in experience. Instead, have a private talk with the outfitter to see if he can match you up with someone more suited to your skills.

- Treat your guide as a friend with whom you're sharing the woods for a few days. Learn from him, and maybe teach him some things about what you know. Smile and laugh now and then. Tell a joke or two. It's not all that serious. A happy guide who likes you will work much harder for you than a guide who can't stand you because you're a dick. I know this from experience.....

[BrentLaBere]

What makes a good outfitter?>...Passionate outdoors-women or man that loves every minute of the adventure
I would first start by saying it needs to be someone with experience. Jaquomo mentioned how one might be young and inexperienced. In my opinion this wouldn't be acceptable for my needs. Maybe for some others but I think this could be worked out ahead of time and comes down to the responsibility of the hunter signing up for the hunt. Know what you are getting yourself into. I would think you would need to have conversations over the summer months with the guide you plan on hunting with (even before you apply for a given area-possibly more than a year in advance). I would want a guide willing to discuss expectations with me. Not just having the outfitter be the middle man of the conversation.......that's simply for setting me up with him. I think I would be really easy but maybe annoying for some. I wouldn't want the big wall tent fancy meals and coffee every morning. I would simply want help and a good companion throughout the hunt. Showing me new country, helping me read signs and learning some new "woodsman ship" skills. Anything from navigating the mountain to understanding the migration.....not necessarily of that given area. I would want to discuss ahead of time that the guide would be a teacher/coach. I wouldn't want to pay a guide for luxury items on a hunt. But this is what I would look for in a guide and consider to be a good one. I have nothing against the card players or guys that like these luxury items but its just not what I would look for in a guide. If I am paying big bucks I want experience. LOL and the last thing would be to hunt an area with elk.......why get a guide for an area with no elk?
I would need to hold up my end from everything of showing up and having a positive attitude on the trip. Blaming no one or anything for misfortunes along the journey. Hunt/help from the time I arrive to the time I leave. Bring enough cash for a tip.

[>>>---WW---->]

Great post Jaquomo! I to am a former guide and can relate to everything you said.

[Jaquomo]

Outfitters are businessmen. I've met very few (ok, none...) who have the love of adventure you mention. In fact, many of them are still outfitters because there isn't really a career path out of it once you start. Most I know are pretty cynical, have seen and heard it all from hundreds of know-it-all, want-it-alls who pass through their camps.

Brent, not to be a wet-blanket, but you are asking for something that is super-specialized and would likely be very expensive, if you could find it. What you essentially want is a personal bivy-hunting guide who is an expert in all things, totally upbeat 24/7 while busting his arse and living in the dirt like a ground animal, and will take you to his personal honey-hole. This is not what elk guiding is about, but more like a Stone's sheep guide, or a bighorn guide in the Canmore, etc..

Assuming you're talking about elk, someone like that will either be guiding on a big ranch (in which case they could create a "pretend" backcountry hunt for you) or will work for an outfitter with a public land license for that area. He likely won't be a regular guide, but would be a free-lancer like I used to be, who is willing to deal with those types of conditions for a week or so and make some serious quick money (Trust me, guides don't get into that for the hardship - that's only for hunters who want to test themselves.) . The outfitter will take his cut, and you'll then negotiate something with the guide. He won't take you into his best honeyholes, because since it's on public land, you'll be free to go back in there the next year with your buddies and wreck it for him. So he'll take you to some likely areas, maybe even places he's scouted but never hunted himself and wants to learn during hunting season.

A more realistic option for you would be to negotiate a one-on-one horse pack hunt, with a guide, a wrangler-cook, and several pack horses. You can sleep in the dirt and eat Mountian House if you want, but that will get you the closest to the type of experience you're looking for. You'll be mobile enough to find elk, can get far enough in that the guide won't be giving his best spot away where you can come back on foot, and you can craft a wilderness "experience". It will be REALLY spendy, but will get you closest to what you describe.

[BrentLaBere]

I see your points Jaquomo and understand the unreal expectations from a business point of view. I am not and don't plan on being in the market for a guide in the near future. I couldn't afford one even if I wanted one. I am new to this and love it for the most part because of the sense of adventure. So, that's why I described the type of guide that I would look for......simply to be apart of the discussion.

"you'll be free to go back in there the next year with your buddies and wreck it for him."
"have seen and heard it all from hundreds of know-it-all, want-it-alls who pass through their camps" - Like I said I am new to this.....

Since this post was directed at me for the most part.....I took these with a grain of salt. These are pretty big assumptions in the hypothetical situations you described. But I would at least hope you would let me name my made up friends

[Jaquomo]

Brent, sorry if you took my comments the wrong way, as I absolutely didn't direct those two quotes at you, personally. Rather, I was explaining common concerns from experienced outfitters and guides about things that happen regularly, especially on public land. Guides teach them everything about the area and what the elk do, then the next year the guys are back camped in that same meadow with more buddies, maybe with llamas they've rented or horses one of the "new" buddies owns.

The "know-it-all, want-it-alls" are guys who've had success on other guided hunts, so are now experts. They expect you to lead them to 300" bulls every day so they can pull the trigger, aren't interested in hearing what you have to say, more concerned about impressing you with how much money they have, how many big animals they've killed (on guided hunts), etc.. Arrogant, insufferable bores who quickly sour when everything isn't perfect or the elk aren't cooperating. I will admit this, since the statute of limitations has run out - there were times when I led a jerk away from a bull I knew to be a whopper, convincing him it was a loud little five point and we'd do better on the other side of the mountain, because I didn't want him to shoot it. Judge me however you want; you had to be there to understand.

You seem like a very sincere hunter who just wants to learn. Like the kind of fellow a guide would enjoy spending a week with. That's admirable. You are probably the sort who won't take someone back to a honeyhole someone else has shown you, whether for pay or out of kindness. Folks like you are becoming rarer and rarer these days.

When I guided, I looked at it to be as much a teacher as a game-finder. My background as a former professional naturalist instilled that in me. You'd be surprised at the number of guys who aren't that interested in learning the kind of detail I tried to teach so they could kill elk on their own next time. Instead, all they cared about was killing a trophy bull, by whatever means necessary.

My last guiding adventure was with a father and son. The father was wonderful, savored the entire essence of the hunt, wanted to learn, and didn't really care if he killed anything. The son was arrogant, cocky, didn't listen, charged ahead by himself so he could get to the elk first, and chanted 'trophy bull, trophy bull" like a mantra. We were into elk. The father died in my arms on the mountain while I tried to save him, with bulls bugling all around us. His last words before collapsing were, "This is the most beautiful morning I've ever seen." The son acted like his dad dying ruined "his" hunt. To this day I still think the wrong man died on the mountain that day.

[13bonatter69]

WOW.....That's all I can say about that!!!

[Indian Summer]

Jesus Lou! Sorry to hear you had to deal with that.

You know I've always liked you. We've crossed paths many times and your posts are always so genuine not to mention accurate from actual experiences. I love that you don't hold back and tell it like it is. Funny how people can perceive things on the internet. Brent he definitely was NOT directing any comments toward you. Those lines are ones most every guide/outfitter has muttered. The people on this site are pretty level headed. Not many egos around here. For that reason many or most of you just can't imagine the kind of people who roll into elk camps every year. We deal with so many factors that we have no control over. From weather to uncooperative elk it all comes with the territory but the people are what makes or breaks a good experience week in & week out.

I'm going to sit back and keep reading these comments for now. We have a couple guides but I'm the only outfitter that frequents this site and the only outfitter sponsor. At some point I'm going to tell you what I think makes a good outfitter and a good client. Also I'll let you inside my brain and tell you what my ways of thinking always were. In the meantime after reading Lou's posts and Brent's I can't resist telling a few noteworthy stories or good & bad clients. I'll apologize in advance for rambling but I want you to know how extreme things can be before I comment.

Charles Schwab owns a country club in the Bitterroot called the Stock Farm. One year he sent his friend since grade school to hunt with me. He also happened to be the CEO of Bank America at the time. Let's just say he didn't qualify for food stamps. He flew there from San Fran in his own plane. The basic idea was that he wanted to kill a bull elk for his office wall and he was doing everything in his power to make sure nothing stood between him and success. Wanted the whole camp to himself with no other hunters for the week with me the outfitter as his guide, a full time cook, and a wrangler. He had a custom gun made just for the hunt and of course made sure we all knew what it cost which was 9 grand. As he told his nightly stories he drink a half bottle of scotch and more often than not he would literally fall asleep at the table in the middle of a sentence. When it came time to hunt he called all the shots. He wanted me to bring a folding chair to post him in spots and we had to carry radios. The wrangler was to stay a half mile behind with the horses in case he got tired. Oh and one more thing.... he said he did not want to take 1 step uphill at all which was the reason for the full time wrangler & horses pulling up the rear. Yeah.... So off we went. Every time I said ok we're going to work down this way where the elk like to feed bed etc he'd say ok set up my chair and go down there and chase them up to me. I tried to explain without offending or contradicting him that that's not how it works. He didn't take that very well and made it clear that he wasn't interested in my explanations. So we went with his plan A. Even if the elk did decide to commit suicide it wouldn't have worked because every time we got back to him his gun was laying on the ground at his feet and he was snoring. I took a picture of him out cold mouth hanging open one time for a laugh.

At night he would tell more stories one of which was about the fact that since he fell asleep at the drop of a hat his wife would no longer get in the airplane with him. Really? lol He had a GPS that he didn't know how to use. Said it was more complicated than the one in the plane. My wrangler tried to show him the basics of using it. He kept saying how the wrangler was so smart he should get one of his own just like it. Eventually one night he looked up and said ok boys I know you're holding out. How much money do you want to take me to the real honey holes? Days later he said ok boys I know you don't want to give up the spot so how much do you want to take my gun and go shoot him for me? To this day I use the same line that I couldn't resist: Elk don't care how much money you have sir. You can make a pile 10 feet high for bait and sit there and wait for weeks and they will not come to it. He quit hunting and left early. Upon leaving he invited us to dinner at The Club. My smoke duck salad cost $75. He showed us his check for the week from Schwab for the renting of his 1.5 million dollar log cabin. 9 grand. His wife was an architect and designed the home which "wasn't quite as nice as the one I have in southern California"

Money money money!

As the outfitter I never expected tips. But it always upset me... ok pissed me right off when people stiffed my employees. After dinner he looked at the wrangler and said " I know you liked that GPS and I think you earned it so here you go.... this is your tip. What he said after that left me speechless. "That's the top of the line worth big bucks so when Joe pays you here's my address and I want you to mail me $100 toward the GPS" Yeah.

One time I had a cop from Arizona. He had a special needs daughter and spent every spare dollar and minute of his time doing what he could to make her life better. He was semi guided because he couldn't afford a full time guide. I showed him around for one day and managed to call a 320+ bull pretty close but no cigar. Eventually... in the middle of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, a 5 point bull walked right up to him and he shot it. He said he had a great hunt and appreciated everything but just didn't have the money to tip anyone. We've all heard the lines before but... 6 months later I got a couple checks in the mail with a really nice letter that ended saying "please forward these to the guys and here's one for you.... for your sincerity." Every once in awhile someone comes along that restores your faith in your fellow man. But you still don't forget the ones who undermine it.

So... one more: Names have NOT been changed to protect the not very innocent. Dick Cheslock (perfect name) was the chief of the Green Bay fire department. I hope you read this you bastard! He was in his mid 50s and came with his 34 year old son in law. Both booked 1 on 1 hunts. I talk to all of my clients throughout the year. You can't send everyone out with the same gameplan so I try to get a feel for their goals and abilities. I really liked Dick. Like I mentioned in the "Internet partners" thread it's crazy how absolutely nice people can be when they want something from you.... compared to what they are really like. So I put ol Dick on my best spot on opening morning with my best guide. As the sun comes up he says I don't feel good. Minutes later he says he wants to go back to camp. ( so much for my success rate) I had taken a string of mules off the mountain after pack in and was to return to camp the following day. Middle of day 1 I get a phone call. "Dick is really sick and says he needs to get off the mountain" Safety first right so I say what any outfitter would (or should) say. No problem. I'll be there asap. Dick is a bragger and says that he has thousands of hours of EMT training and knows exactly what's wrong. Kidney infection. No question that's it. I tell him that I've seen symptoms of altitude sickness vary greatly and since it happened on day 1 I think that's the real culprit. Of course I was wrong in his expert opinion. So off the mountain we go. He goes to the hospital in the 'Root.

The very next morning he calls me. Says he feels like a million bucks. Doc says it was a reaction to altitude and he will be fine BUT he advises not to go back into camp. Dick says that he appreciated everything but has no choice but to head back to Wisconsin. I tell him I feel really bad about it but I guess there's nothing we can do. After we hang up my mind starts working. I call him right back and say I have an idea. If you are willing to get a room in town I'll pull one guide off the hill to guide you. I can't pull both because they have other daily responsibilities up there with livestock etc. You'll hunt up there every day but each night we'll get you back down to 4400 feet and hopefully you'll be ok. Also.. just to be safe I'll give you all horses AND my truck and trailer so you don't over exert yourself getting up to elk country every day. Think about it... maybe run it by the doctor... and let me know.

In a flash he calls back and says hell yeah that sounds great and we sure appreciate it. On day 1 of this plan he is hiking downhill and hammers his big toe off of a rock. He says (again) that he has thousands of hours of EMT training and blah blah blah... it's dislocated. It did look bad and he could barely get his boot on and laced up. So him the son in law and the guide do the best they can. Dick decides that when they come to good looking spots he'd post and the other 2 would work the timber and maybe something would come his way. That's fine. I forgot to mention that along with his training he also has a giant ziplok bag FULL of pills of every size and color. So all week he proceeds to pop pills and is just flat out miserable. Not much I can do about that right.

Now the good part: He hunts all week and on the last day they come back and the guide is unloading horses down at the rail. Dick(head) starts walking up toward the house and I figure he's going to thank me for doing whatever I could to make it all work. WRONG! He points his finger right in my face and says "You ripped us off!" He says I know you are a businessman and you'll do whatever is necessary to protect the reputation of this outfit so I know you'll do the right thing. We booked 1 on 1 hunts and you failed to provide us each with a guide. I want $1000 each in refunds or you will be sorry. I'm freakin' floored! I told him what he already knew... I had to pack another group in that day and I said let me take care of this week Dick and I'll call you as soon as I get back out. he grumbles and mumbles ok but don't try me!

No... here's the good part: By the time I get out there's a letter in my mailbox from the Board Of Outfitters. He had already filed a formal complaint. The Board believe it or not IS anti outfitter. In his complaint he requested $600 each instead of $1000. They didn't even want to hear my version and said PAY THE MAN NOW. They booked 1 on 1 hunts and you didn't fulfill your contractual obligations. I wrote the Board a letter that was pretty much the story you just read thinking surely they'd see things my way. Wrong. So I told them that they had the nerve to throw me under the bus like that after I went out of my way, incurred additional expenses, and told the guy I'd call him asap. I also told them this: Policies are most often established as a result of an incident that occurred. Something happens... you're unprepared... so you make sure that from that time on you ARE prepared not to let the same thing happen. The policy that resulted from that incident sadly was: Stick to the contract letter for letter. No favors. If a hunter has to terminate his or her hunt for any reason let it be by their choice and do nothing to attempt to salvage their hunt as an act of good faith because that is not in the contract.

Pathetic huh. Also my policy was F the Board. No respect for them or MT Fish Wildlife and Parks. I could tell you a story of them setting us up to try and confiscate a lion taken 100% legally.... and getting busted for it! I can't resist so I probably will here in a minute. So... if you think outfitters are ALL just businessmen who's only concern is money I hope you rethink that. It can be a cruel world sometimes and when the nice gracious appreciative people don't kill a bull it's not uncommon for the finger pointing to start or as in this case, worse.

By the way... Dickheads son in law pulled me aside before they left. He felt terrible about the whole thing. He said everyone that worked for Dick hated him and he really was a dick. He apologized for the situation and said he hoped I knew he had nothing to do with Dick's actions. He also said he did not want a refund and appreciated what I did for them. Nevertheless I had to pay him or have my license suspended whether he wanted the money or not. Every time I tell that story my blood pressure goes up. Damn... there goes my faith in my fellow man again. As an outfitter it's like a roller coaster ride of never ending ups and downs. Anyone in public service will say the same thing... only they don't work like dogs from 3:30 am until 11 at night before being taken advantage of.

Real quick... I had a guy who at the beginning of the week looked out across the mountains with his arms spread wide and said "This is your office. You have the greatest job in the world" 6 days later he looked and me smiled and said "Your job sucks and I wouldn't take it for all the money in the world" He was a great person and I said you got that right & we both sat there and laughed our asses off.

[Swede]

Indian Summer: I feel for you and understand better than you can imagine. I have not been an outfitter or guide, but working for the Federal Government put me into close contact with people just as unsavory as the ones you describe. For some reason some people have the notion that government employees are there for their abuse. I heard some garbage so often I had a pat answer in advance for them. Overall I loved my job, and most of the people I worked with were great, but it does not take many Dicks to ruin your day.

[Jaquomo]

Joe, thanks for making me smile with your stories. I can relate to each. I didn't meant to imply that outfitters are all cold-hearted businessmen, because some of my friends who are outfitters love what they do. But it is a year-round business, you have to sit in booths at shows and listen to everybody's boring story, work year-round to prep for hunting season, deal with stock (I used to own 26 horses myself...), build your camps, deal with guides quitting halfway through the season and every other sort of backwoods drama imaginable, cater to every stripe of arrogant SOB along with the sincere guys and everything in-between, and it's damn hard work. I think too many people romanticize it and think, "Wow, that seems like a dream job!", when in fact, you do it for your own personal reasons.

I have a great, high-paying job in technology and took time off to guide because I enjoyed extending the season beyond my archery season and being in the woods teaching people. When people used to tell me, and still do, "You should quit and just be a guide", I had to laugh. They think guides and outfitters are getting rich.

Now I guide friends and acquaintances for free, but I get to choose who I help. Last year I guided a 73 year old (grumpy) friend on a cow moose hunt. His order was to find a dry young cow close to the road. I delivered one to him on the fourth day, only about 50 feet from a road. He stalked in and missed with a .300 Mag at 50 yards, and wouldn't shoot again because he didn't want to ruin any meat. No meat was ruined, for sure. But I worked as hard for him as if I was getting paid, except I was doing it for the enjoyment of the hunt. When he got down about missing, I jacked his spirits back up and we went on. He decided on day six that he was too old for this anymore, and we parted friends, and are still good friends to this day.

Good outfitter story: On my first archery caribou hunt, six of us traveled to a high-dollar camp in northern Quebec. The camp manager proved himself to be a real jerk from the minute we met him. The guides and cooks were great. But then this guy flat lied to us halfway through a tough hunt when the outfitter sent planes to take us to a different camp, telling us there were no 'bou there and we should just stay put and continue to bowhunt. If we did leave he said the rule was we had to shoot the first caribou we saw with a rifle. Turns out the guys in that camp had all bagged-out with big bulls in the first two days, and the place was still full of caribou the rest of the week. We learned this when we all met up after the hunt in Lac Pau. The six of us wrote letters to the outfitter praising the good aspects of the hunt (we all killed a caribou of some sort, and my partner and I killed very nice bulls) but suggesting he have a talk with the camp manager about honesty. We figured that would be the end of it.

Instead, The outfitter/owner, Alain Tardiff of Leaf River Outfitters, personally wrote us each back and offered a highly discounted hunt. He left thousands of $$ the table to do that, because he's booked full every year. We accepted his offer, the camp manager treated us like kings, and we had an awesome experience.

[bnsafe]

gentleman, I work as a nurse, I can tell you those "dicks" come to the op room also. its not a "hunter", its the person. it does go both ways, my guide in Arkansas sucked, had been in trouble for electric calling snow geese an was putting together several clients for another electric call hunt when I was there. my cousin paid a bear guide in Manitoba, he shot a bear an it got away, he was absolutely sick about it. when he got back to the lodge the guide says, you taped your own hunt, can we have a copy of it to show other hunters how not to shoot. it was way out of line when he had just made a bad shot like we all have an was sick about it. the point is, it all comes down to the person, rather its the guide or the guided. I would love to hunt with indian summers, obviously he is a good man rather you see an elk or not. we would have a good time in camp. but again, it all comes down to the man, not the job.

[Triplebhunters]

Intense thread.

Not sure whether to be sad, upset, or laugh my &$$ off.

So I would like to know the perfect answer.

Every outfitter website should have a Q&A section.
Style of hunt
Tree stand or ground blind
Archery
Gun
Transportation
Personal auto
To from airport
To from hunt location
Horse
Four wheeler
Foot
Grub
Lodging
Arrival time
Physical requirements ( a lil detail ).
Clothing, most people do not know clothing has advanced in the last 30 years
Tips (short explanation below).

A questionnaire outlined and then mailed to the prospective client after enough interest achieved(?). With questions concerning his perspective on each itemized Q&A statement question. Etc. both parties need to be on the same page here. Really sucks talking to outfitter that doesn't remember or have a note that even says what weapon of choice you decided to hunt with.

There are more Q&A. But the jist is started.


Tips. Believe it or not most people do not have a clue how to tip. It has been a topic of discussion on all the outfitted hunts I've been on. Yep it sounds rude on a web site but I have seen it come across with some cooth.

I'm saving points for a different area, and have a long contract in my file cabinet of the outfitter I believe I will be going with. And it's been there over a year. This is one that he sent me.

The perfect guide for me would be someone to come into my hunt area and teach me what I need to know.

[Indian Summer]

TripleB... not quite sure I have that straight. Would the questionnaire be for people considering booking or for ones who have already booked?

It kinda works the other way around. Clients shop for outfitters who offer the type of hunt they feel they want and suits their abilities and/or goals. Sadly... after watching too much television people intentionally book hunts where their goals far exceed their abilities.

I've had outfitters tell me my brochure is to wordy. (like a lot of my posts on here ha ha) They say I should be more brief in an effort to get the prospective clients to call me and ask questions so I can work on selling them hunts. Heck no! I try not to waste the hunter's time or mine. We correspond with so many people each season the last thing I want to do is double that number by intentionally talking to people who aren't interested in the type of hunts and services we have to offer. The idea is to be informative as possible so they know what type of hunts, terrain, food etc etc we have to offer. If they like what they see enough to email or call then most likely the next thing they try to find out is if I'm the kind of person they can trust and would enjoy spending a week with & maybe to get references.

Hope that sounds logical.

When I'm shopping for things if someone is short on info... or worse yet fail to show their rates.... they can kiss my business good bye. Trying to force me to call them is just a crappy way of doing business if you ask me.

One thing to think about also... quite often hunts come in groups. 2, 3 or 4. Sometimes up to 6. 99% of the time there is a ring leader. The guy who makes contact with us and asks all the questions. Usually he's the most motivated. Sometimes but not always he's the guy with some experience. The others put their trust in him to track down a good outfitter. BUT... they leave it at that and often ask us no questions at all and really have no idea about the details of the hunt they booked. As you can imagine that can be a recipe for disaster. Sometimes they blame their buddy... and sometimes it's all our fault.

One time I had a guy book a hunt for him and his elderly father in law. Then... he cancelled and the 70+ year old father in law from the Bronx came solo. We didn't have any major problems because he was a nice enough guy but oh man... Let's just say he couldn't have been more unprepared or out of his element if he went to Antarctica with nothing but a bathing suit and sandals! The stories are endless and you just wouldn't believe some of them.

Wanna hear more?

[Jaquomo]

Indian Summer, tell some stories about the guys who come to camp with a brand new high $$ rifle they've never shot, but they don't tell you that until after they've shot at an animal..

[ctdad]

I'm really enjoying these stories.

[Indian Summer]

Ok Lou... don't want to be a thread hog but since you asked....

Put a hunter in front of me because for some reason every time I'm in front he stops until I'm way too far ahead. A mulie doe (not legal) runs out ahead but then turns uphill and cuts back to get behind us. Before I know it BOOM his manly custom 300 Ultra Mag... first year they made that caliber, with top of the line Swaro scope sounds off. WTF! He misses her at 60 yards. Thank God right. He wouldn't be the first easterner that mistaked that ivory colored trim around a mule deer's ear for antler. I get right up there quick to make sure he doesn't shoot again and the first words out of his mouth are " I just bought this gun over the summer and was too busy to sight it in or shoot it. A friend took a couple shots for me and said it was ready to go"

I have a million stories of unbelievable things. People spend all that money to hunt and wait all year but sometimes do zero to come even somewhat prepared. Hate to say it but how can we give a hoot about people like that. Quite the opposite really.... they come prepared all right: To wound game. grrr!

Oh what the hay 1 more since you asked:

Plastic surgeon from L.A. Talked all week about the multi million dollar position he just landed back home. All 5 of his buddies rolled their eyes on a regular basis. Of course we were all made aware of the fact that his gun was worth as much as everyone else's put together. His guide spots a nice 6 point bull feeding in a wide open meadow. After bragging all week that he could drive tacks at 500 yards he says he'd prefer to get closer. Good... we prefer to get as close as we can. At 400, 300, 200 and 100 he says the same thing though. Man cover is zero but the wind is good so they do the belly crawl to 60 yards!!! The bull's rack is sticking up so they know where he is and can tell he has his head down feeding. The guide tells him to get ready to shoot and stand up slowly and shoot when ready. Yep... missed and end of story. First words out of his mouth..."That was way too close I never practiced easy chip shots"

You've already hear about this guy too... I told you I steered a guy away from a 30 inch buck. Same guy. We were packing out me in front and the buck was a mere 60 yards below the trail. Frozen like a statue but turning his head right in time with the string. I said half a word or so "there's a..." & shut up and kept riding. It was too close right? There was no way I was going to see a buck like that wounded and run downhill never to be seen again. Especially when we didn't have all day to go look for him.

Side note: A friend of his tipped the cook and guide. He said this is for Doc because he will NOT tip anyone. It might put a dent in his millions. Doc tipped nobody. Everyone else in that party were really great people by the way. it's always interesting funny and gratifying when hunters tell you what you're already thinking... "our one buddy is a dick."

I have an interesting story about one of those groups........ for tomorrow maybe.

[Jaquomo]

Great stuff, Indian Summer. Been there and seen that! This thread may degerate into a guided hunters bloopers thread, but not many places do you get to read-share some of the goofy stuff that really goes on. Joe, we should get together and write a book.

My hunting partner was guiding a guy who was supposed to be a CIA contract sniper, decorated Nam sniper, all that. They were deep in a wilderness area. Suddenly the hunter bails off his horse, pulls his very expensive long-range rifle from the scabbard, hits prone, and aims down into the valley below. "Which one's the bull?" He whispered.

"Do you see elk?" Tom asked.

"Which one's the bull??!!!!" He was getting agitated.

"Ok, where are they compared to the packer and the pack string on the trail down there?" The packer wore an orange vest, and every other horse had an orange sheet over the panniers. They had an argument for a few minutes, while the guy insisted they were "getting away". Tom finally took the gun away from him.

Next day, Tom set him up on a nice bull at about 100 yards. The guy jacked his first shell out on the ground, then kept cycling the bolt until his gun was empty. Never pulled the trigger. Then he turned to Tom and said, incredulously, "I can't believe I missed that bull, and he's still standing there!"

Neither of them said anything back at camp, and I don't believe the guy hunted for the rest of the week, just rode and looked at scenery.

[WapitiTalk1]

Don't tease me. 'Tales of XX Years of Outfitting/Guiding Elk Hunters'. I would buy the first copy. You guys may really be on to something

[Swede]

Jaquomo's story about the fellow who jacked all of his shells out on the ground thinking he was shooting at an elk, reminds me that a few people I have been with over the years rarely or never get anything. They don't shoot or can't hit. I have come to believe many can't draw, carefully aim and properly release an arrow at an animal. They get too nervous. It may help to practice drawing, etc. on squirrels, birds, rabbits and the like, to get familiar with the routine until it come mostly by instinct.

[Triplebhunters]

Not sure of the perfect way do do any of it. Not sure if there is a perfect way. I'm say throwing a few ideas and hoping some people have ideas to make it smoother. Some people show up so unprepared. Like no license. So I do feel bad for outfitters. It's has to be terrible. But at the same time I've been on hunts (four outfitted, two whitetail and two black bear). Where everyone has to stand around and wait for clients to go buy license. To me that was the outfitters and the clients fault. The client should have purchased them ahead of time but the outfitter advertised that they could be purchased when they arrived. And if they communicated ahead of time six other clients would not have had to stand around with their thumb in an uncomfortable place waiting.
When I DIY hunt I plan my days to hunt hard and days to spend with my family, with an outfitted hunt I have five days to hunt as hard as the outfitter and daylight allows. I make check list (plural), to try to accommodate any and all bloopers that come up. So I guess in a nut shell a client needs to learn to be on same page as the outfitter that they book with. Hense the quesnstionnaire, both sides prepared, and on the same side.
Don't get pist at me for my ignorance. I'm tuned into this to learn what I can to make my hunts to where I can just hunt harder. I research year round, never stop. My work area is called the outfitters club, where we stand around seeing what's new.
I would like one of your brochures.
We can all tell by your post that you like information, maybe you are unique and I hope that makes you a successful outfitter.
Kind of just blurted all that out.
Yep I'm up for more stories.
And I called Bob McGinnis, going to see him in a couple weeks.

[BrentLaBere]

I am enjoying the stories and would definitely read that book.

[BrentLaBere]

Question for the guides/outfitters. I hope it doesn't take away from the OP or story telling though!

I am building points for a Wyoming elk hunt. I have a few units down and the one I would really like to hunt has some designated wilderness areas. These areas, as I'm sure most of you know, are off limits for the NR who hunts without a resident or guide. What should I be looking for in a guide (in your opinion). Should I simply look for a drop camp style hunt to suit my needs better? Ignore the Wilderness areas and simply hunt on my own outside the wilderness areas? What would you do as a guide in a different state that may or may not need one to hunt Wyoming?

[Jaquomo]

Brent, for me, personally, when hunting WY I just avoid wilderness areas and hunt BLM and NF. Which really makes me mad because I've backpacked and fished wilderness areas all over WY without a "guide".

Also, the state of WY considers a "resident guide" as any drunk off the street with a WY drivers license. So you could literally find an unemployed hippie chick in a bar in Lander, offer to take her on a camping/fishing trip for a week, all expenses paid in exchange for her cooking while you hunt, (cheap!) and there you go, you have a "guide" and can hunt wilderness. Stupid.

Depending upon which areas you've researched, you may find as good, if not better, hunting in roadless areas that aren't designated as "wilderness".

Another option for you might be to go onto the WY forum on some other hunting sites (as well as this forum) and honestly try to find a WY hunting partner or two for your adventure. If you are honest, have done your research and don't come off as looking for a free-ride to a honeyhole, you should be able to accomplish that.

[Washington Wapiti]

I should be working, but I can't stop reading. Holy crap . . . any envy I may have had for people that are able to make a living guiding/working in the hunting industry was just squashed! There sure are a lot of “Richards” out there. I will be looking forward to my signed copy of the book.

I've been on one guided hunt, and that was a turkey hunt in Klickitat County (home of Washington's turkey introduction program) this last May. I booked a one day hunt and unfortunately, it was right towards the end of the season and it pissed rain most of the morning and early afternoon. We hunted areas that in April were white hot and sounded like quite a few youngsters went home happy during the youth hunt. A one day hunt was realistic for getting a bird on these properties. We saw and called in ZERO birds. Well, I take that back . . . while we were driving to a set up, we saw a small group of 4 or 5 birds on private property that the outfitter was not contracted with I got a $110 speeding ticket (my first in 15 years!) on the drive down, ended up getting to the cabin I paid $100 a night for at like 10 or 11pm because I took the wrong highway and went the LONG way. 2 hours out-of-the way long. I also got bit on the ass by a bunch of ants during one of our sits. They apparently didn't like me sitting on their house. It was like Dorf Goes Hunting, but I still had an excellent time! I think a good client is one who is prepared, is “teachable” and takes direction, rolls with the punches, and has read the outfitters website or brochure and meets all the criteria usually listed. The client should call and talk with the outfitter for further information, and find out if both parties are on the same page about the hunt details before booking. Many times, you can tell a lot about a person or business from a simple conversation. The client shouldn't have unrealistic expectations about the hunt. When you pay a decent chunk of change, you expect a good chance at taking an animal. I don't think it is wrong to feel that way. But animals are animals, and whether you pay or DIY it, that isn't going to change their behavior. Don’t be a pill! I was happy with the service and price, and will give it another go in April if finances allow. I must say, even though I’ve seen much more action on my own turkey hunts, than this one instance . . . it is awesome hunting areas where you and the guide - or in my case; me, the guide, and my woman - are the only people there. Joe, you aren't the only long-winded one here!

[Indian Summer]

OK Swede your thread has quieted down so I'll answer the original questions.

Since we've heard some interesting client stories I'll start with that. But I think the answer to both is nearly the same. What makes good clients and outfitters are good people!

One thing I ask the hunters who really grill me about success rates is: Most likely you hunt deer. If you want to hunt elk you must be a pretty avid hunter right? Put a lot of time into your deer hunting and all. So... if I come to your neck of the woods for a week am I going to kill a buck? You know nothing about me and my abilities either. Do you kill one every year? I think the best clients are sensible and reasonable enough to put themselves in the other guy's shoes. Most likely based on the little they know about me and the fact that deer hunting is never easy they will be very hesitant to answer the question. So even though it might sound generic I tell them the truth: I've had hunts that went 100% and hunts that went zero.

But I also ask them what if I were a complete rookie? Would it not make sense for me to listen to your advice? So the best clients are the ones who come prepared to learn and listen to the advice that they paid for. I'd say about 2/3 do. It might be easier to describe a bad client. They are the ones who, even though they have little to know experience in my world, still think they know it all. Some of the worst elk clients are the ones who are the best deer hunters back home. You're not in Kansas anymore!

Anyone with a half an ounce of common sense knows the experience is the best teacher. So come prepared to work hard... really hard, and keep an open mind. Throw in a dash of a sense of humor which can get you through the rough times and you'll be a good client. I know it can be hard to do but when it comes time to hunt forget about how much money you spent. Hunters who dwell on that usually have a thought process even at home that revolves around money. If that's the case you won't have a clear mind and can't focus on what's going on from day to day.

If killing an animal will make or break your experience you might want to look at statewide success rates, ask yourself how you can be so sure to buck those odds.... and then think about a pheasant hunt in South Dakota.

A good outfitter. We'll I think most people could put together a pretty good description. A guy who loves what he does and isn't all about the money. Most also think that's probably nearly impossible to find. I like to think that most start out that way. But we all have bills to pay and some end up forgetting about their love of hunting and lose sight of that. I also think a top notch outfitter or guide is one who really enjoys meeting new people and likes to teach. A good outfitter has to be a bit of a business man. Otherwise when you decide to rebook he might not be there to take you hunting again. I've seen lots of guys go belly up because they are poor business planners. A good outfitter doesn't have to find all new clients every year. As I built my business it got to the point where the higher % of clients were repeats. That speaks volumes. If you ever call references that should be one of your questions: Have you hunted there before? Also.. were there any other repeat clients in camp? If you talk to someone who says they did NOT kill an elk but have already booked another hunt with the outfitter you are on the right track. The animals are there and surely they had faith in their outfitter. They trust him. That also speaks for itself.

I had a neighboring outfitter who well... never hunted. Killed 2 elk in his life both on private ranches. No skill involved. Strictly a businessman. Funny how he usually answered his own questions. One time he asked me "how do you get so many repeat clients?" As one of the newer outfitters in the Bitterroot I had the highest rate of repeats. But I reminded him of a previous conversation we had. He complained one time in late August that I took so damn long to return his phone calls. "Where the hell have you been?" he asked. I said out scouting. I love to be in the hills so to me it wasn't really work. He went on to say "you are wasting your time. You don't get paid to run around the hills like that" I said I beg to differ. You have new clients every year. Some of the people on your reference list aren't exactly giving you good reviews either. Trust me I know. So every year you spend the same, or more money in advertising to find your new hunters. Meanwhile my advertising costs continue to go down because those repeats make great references. They sell hunts for me. They are my friends!!! They know I'm a hunter first and foremost. They know I kill elk on a regular basis and I can talk about what's going on up there as well as about brodheads, calls, backpacks, etc etc. I use the stuff! Also... they are more likely to be successful because they have been here, we know each other, and they are more prepared than those newbies you keep lining up. How could he argue that right?

Also... I am in camp with them. He on the other hand would take their check for the balance, smile and shake their hand and send them into camp never to see him again. I guided a few hunts for him and every time things weren't going as planned.... like on tv they would ask "Where is ____" I would tell prospective hunters that if I feed you any BS on the phone you can feed it back to me at the dinner table because I will be sitting right across from you. That's huge! He hated it being in the mountains and it was obvious too. He was in his office already trying to round up next years hunters like a dog chasing it's tail. The following year he vowed to spend 1 night in camp on every hunt. He lasted 2 hunts and was back in the swivel chair looking for business.

I'm rambling and I could go on twice as long so I'll just back up and say good people make good everything. In a world where we're no longer sure if we can trust the police, the teachers, or even a priest... that's the bottom line. So next time you are talking to an outfitter and thinking about booking a hunt you might want to ask him about his family. His principles and priorities. How he spends the off season. Why he decided to become an outfitter.... instead of "Am I going to kill a bull?" That will all go a long way.

One more thing real quick... the definition of an outfitter: A hunter, businessman, horseman, EMT, gear junkie, psychologist, referee, marriage counselor(yeah), gourmet chef, comedian, and someone who sounds like they'd make a darn good friend. Maybe an Elknut!

I'd love to hear how you guys and gals would define a good outfitter. So I'll shut up now.

[ctdad]

Indian summer nailed it. Good people make good everything. Love it.

I did a guided hunt once and it went great. The outfitters and guides were good people.

My biggest goal in life is to help my children become good people.