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Colorado Winter kill

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Colorado Winter kill

Postby saddlesore » 03 16, 2023 •  [Post 1]

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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Swede » 03 16, 2023 •  [Post 2]

We are getting unusually heavy snow accumulations in at least parts of Oregon and Washington. It might be a good idea to find out about game survival before you choose where to go.
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby >>>---WW----> » 03 16, 2023 •  [Post 3]

Antelope are taking it the worse. We had a really mild fall and the antelope didn't move down country like usual. Then when the big snows did come, they were trapped. All the sagebrush got covered so there was no feed for them. And the only place they could move around was on the roadways. A lady was going to work one morning and when she topped over the hill, just about 1/2 mile west of my house, there were 19 of them in the middle of the road. She took out the whole herd. She couldn't get stopped quick enough. Said it was like bugs hitting the windshield. I heard of another incident where a semi truck had hid and killed 30 all at once.

The deer are not doing well either, And there are only 10 -12 elk hanging around a hay stack here.
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Lefty » 03 16, 2023 •  [Post 4]

Some of the area south of us and into Utah is over 150% We need the moisture, but it is at the expense of wildlife.
Is the wolf thing still in court?
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Jhg » 03 17, 2023 •  [Post 5]

Regarding wolves in Colorado, they are already here. I suggest accepting that reality. The release program is ill-advised as I have stated before. But lets not gripe about how wolves change hunting. They do. But it is what it is. Lets adapt.

Snow kill is hard to accept and harder to witness animals barely surviving. I agree this year might be different given the snow kill, but oh well. I will be out there doing what I love, hunting hard. I have my excuse for tag soup right here in this thread!
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby saddlesore » 03 17, 2023 •  [Post 6]

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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Jhg » 03 17, 2023 •  [Post 7]

I talked to a rancher in Walden and they are doing a lot to adapt. To their credit. But wolves are a big change. I was educated regarding compensation for a hefer killed by wolf. One time compensation for the momentary value. That does not take into account each future calf potential. All in all, it is no wonder there is so much animosity toward those who voted to re-introduce and those who hunt or ranch.
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby saddlesore » 03 17, 2023 •  [Post 8]

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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Swede » 03 17, 2023 •  [Post 9]

The wolf issue reminds me of what I heard for years working for the Forest Service. The rancher claims every loss on the forest was his prize animal, worth a fortune. Mind you, it was a cougar or something else that killed it not knowing anything about it or its genetics. The rancher knows the risks when they turn out their "prize" animals. Still, they want great compensation for an animal they turned loose on the open range.
The reverse is just as true also. The environmentalists claimed we were "raping a burn victim" when we logged a fire killed stand of timber, or they claimed we were destroying one of the last places some critter inhabited when we planned to build a road or do some logging.
I wish they never introduced Canadian Grey wolves into the lower 48 states but lets not go around crying like our hair is on fire either. I also wish people would quit blaming everyone they disagree with and would stop the hype.
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby saddlesore » 03 17, 2023 •  [Post 10]

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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Swede » 03 17, 2023 •  [Post 11]

The hype is not that the wolves kill. They do! The hype is the exorbitant value of that wonderful, selectively bred, prized animal that is going to have 15-18 prized calves.
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby saddlesore » 03 17, 2023 •  [Post 12]

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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Pop-r » 03 24, 2023 •  [Post 13]

Someone may have worked for the government too long and taken up their ideology. Sad.
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Jhg » 03 24, 2023 •  [Post 14]

I think we all have a choice in regards to wolves being present, regardless of how they got here. 1) we can complain about the changes they bring or 2) we can adapt and accept it. They are not going away, regardless of the haters taking every chance they get to voice their hatred, teach their kids to hate wolves and otherwise instill in others the same single minded attitude everything wolf is evil. I choose to to go a different way and it does not mean I checked my brain at the door or are "playing into the hands of (insert your favorite political group you disagree with )".
The ranchers lost a great opportunity in the Walden area- spending resources to put up anti wolf signs locally, but doing pretty much zero to influence votes on the front range urban corridor. They went to meetings etc, which is good, but why didn't they create a publicity campaign designed to reach voters who are not hunters or ranchers. Seems pretty basic to me if faced with a vote on an issue that would change your lifestyle that you would do more than talk to each other and the few officials that are involved, which reaches almost nobody outside that bubble.
Wolves got the vote here because most voters had no clue and that is on the ranchers and others who are crying the loudest now. Where was all that energy before the vote? I heard almost nothing other than localized concern in Colorado Bowhunter. That does not reach the gen public. They do not read hunting publications. They know next to nothing about ranching. I always get a laugh seeing "Eat Beef" signs in cattle country. Preaching to the choir.
But keep on keeping on.
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Swede » 03 24, 2023 •  [Post 15]

Pop-r wrote:Someone may have worked for the government too long and taken up their ideology. Sad.


I worked in timber management for over 30 years for the U.S.F.S. As the head of the district timber sale planning, I got the job done when most were failing. I met with some of the strongest opponents of timber harvest that the F.S. faced. As the head of the forest timber sale administration, I got the job done to standard without scandal.
On the day I left the forest to retire, the head on one of the largest timber purchasers, we had, came to say goodbye and wish me well. His last words to me still speak. "You were tough, but fair and you treated everyone alike. You played no favorites."
In planning and administration, the key was trust. I was open, honest and they knew where I stood. I met with Sierra Club and logger alkie. I avoided hype and exaggeration. I never went around whining and complaining.
I completely agree with Jhg. If cattlemen or hunters want to get anywhere, we will need to quit bellyaching and saying everyone that disagrees with us is stupid and devoid of understanding. We have no superior intellect or values. We need to quit talking and behaving like we do. We must build trust based on simple truth and legally staying open and above board.
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby saddlesore » 03 24, 2023 •  [Post 16]

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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Jhg » 03 24, 2023 •  [Post 17]

I should temper my tone a bit. My main point is, like it or not, there has to be a reason for someone who is not a rancher, or a hunter, to care about what we feel is important.
Why should they care? Walden is a lot like the town I grew up in: most residents are just making it. It is the county seat. People work hard and earn whatever rewards they enjoy. Part of the town economy is hunting/fishing/recreation. I have been going there for over 30 years. I chose to be married there. I love it just the way it is. But I have been made to feel unwelcome by some, who dump everyone "from away" into the under suspicion box. I was deeply offended by the "If you voted to re-intro wolves into Colorado you are not welcome here..." signs the ranchers had erected. Offended because even though I voted against the measure, it does not take much imagination to realize its only a matter of time before what I choose to support will run afoul of what "they" think is right and then it will be my turn to be the target.
IDK. It bothers me common ground seems so beyond our reach these days. I bend over backwards to try to understand, give weight to and consider seriously the things rural citizens find important. But to many of them I am the enemy just because I choose to live and run a business where I can succeed, that I enjoy some cultural things being handy like an art museum or a great restaurant. It maters not at all I was splitting cordwood by hand in high school to buy a car. Or plowed the driveway (3/4 mile) at 3AM so it wouldn't drift us in. Or that for awhile, there was no new clothes, or a hamburger at McDonald's, because we were hit with a tragedy that crushed my family economically.
I choose to believe every man has good in him. I may hate his politics, but does that make him the devil?
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Swede » 03 24, 2023 •  [Post 18]

We have committed to keeping this forum nonpolitical. Lets keep it that way.
Thank you.

Most of the residents in my neighborhood are nonhunters. They are not antihunting. Most have never said if they are Democrat or Republican. I like it that way and we get along fine. Many will ask me what I got every year when they see I am back from my hunt. They seem happy when I tell them I was successful. They are just as interested when I mention that the wolves were howling close to camp, or I watched a mountain goat from my stand. We all live in an middleclass neighborhood and they are quite intelligent. They know when they are being fed nonsense like Chicken Little's "the sky is falling" line. The wolves are a challenge for wildlife managers and hunters alike, but they are not the end of elk hunting or anything else. I do not think wolves are much of a challenge to my friends, but they vote. I try to be careful how I discuss these things.
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby saddlesore » 03 25, 2023 •  [Post 19]

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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Swede » 03 25, 2023 •  [Post 20]

Saddlesore: You started this thread and introduced the wolf discussion. If you can't keep politics out of it, don't start the thread.
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby saddlesore » 03 25, 2023 •  [Post 21]

Goodbye!!
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 03 26, 2023 •  [Post 22]

I locked this thread so I could think about it a bit overnight. First things first, there is not a physical entry in the forum rules that states no political content. Yes, I discourage most all political laden posts or threads; I know allowing such content can not only send a thread sideways but can spark some pretty divisive feelings between forum members. I agree with Saddlesore's post when he said "It's hard to keep politics out of it when it is impacting the management of our wildlife. If we ignore it, we have no say in what affects us". Again, I agree. Let's try to "not" get into specifics on which party or group, by name, is probably responsible for the wolf introduction (no, it's not reintroduction... the Canadian Greys are not the smaller Timber Wolves that used to reside in the lower 48) in MT, ID, and now CO. We all have our opinions on the who dunnit (I will say that history pretty clearly reveals who it was). I'm going to unlock this thread and see if it can get back on track. Please try to stay away from sending a thread too far down the rabbit hole with political references... Fair enough? Thanks.. /RJ
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Swede » 03 26, 2023 •  [Post 23]

WapitiTalk1 wrote:I locked this thread so I could think about it a bit overnight. First things first, there is not a physical entry in the forum rules that states no political content. Yes, I discourage most all political laden posts or threads; I know allowing such content can not only send a thread sideways but can spark some pretty divisive feelings between forum members. I agree with Saddlesore's post when he said "It's hard to keep politics out of it when it is impacting the management of our wildlife. If we ignore it, we have no say in what affects us". Again, I agree. Let's try to "not" get into specifics on which party or group, by name, is probably responsible for the wolf introduction (no, it's not reintroduction... the Canadian Greys are not the smaller Timber Wolves that used to reside in the lower 48) in MT, ID, and now CO. We all have our opinions on the who dunnit (I will say that history pretty clearly reveals who it was). I'm going to unlock this thread and see if it can get back on track. Please try to stay away from sending a thread too far down the rabbit hole with political references... Fair enough? Thanks.. /RJ


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All I can say is it is difficult to keep up with the boss when he is flipflopping without announcing any change. I am getting whiplash here. The unanimous sentiment a couple of years ago was that we should keep politics out. RJ, you agreed to that standard.
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Jhg » 03 26, 2023 •  [Post 24]

Politics out.

There is no upside pointing fingers politically on any forum. Internet forums do not have a good track record keeping people from going after one another. I blame it on the "in the car" phenomena. That is: people do/say/interpret things in such ways while in a car they never would have, say, standing in a line or walking down a street. Or sitting a table across from one another.

I am standing with Swede. Black & white. No grey area. Keep politics out. Not keep politics out, sort of.
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby >>>---WW----> » 03 27, 2023 •  [Post 25]

Gee!!! Come on guys! I thought this was supposed to be a thread about the Colorado winter kill, not a political debate. The winter kill is just about as bad as I have personally seen it in the 50 years that I have lived in Colorado. So, can we get this thing back on track and not get our shorts all wadded up????
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Swede » 03 27, 2023 •  [Post 26]

My shorts get wadded up when partisan politics take over a thread in violation of what I believe we have agreed on here. This thread started out to be about Colorado winter kill, but there was the Trojan horse of the wolves there in the first post too. The thread was not hijacked.

Here is an observation on public land management from the viewpoint of a retired Forest Service employee.
The F.S. timber program started a precipitous slide during the Reagan administration. It continued on through the H.W. Bush years. Clinton promised to stabilize it at some productive level, but it never happened. Since the timber program started to go down, no administration or congress has done anything significant to restore it to any healthy level.

When I was in college I had some wildlife courses. I am no biologist, but based on what I have learned, the wolves are never going to decimate the elk herds in the west. The elk herds will likely level off at a somewhat lower number than they previously were. The elk numbers could have been very well maintained by hunting, but the national parks wanted their numbers reduced more. I did not want the wolves reintroduced, but nobody asked me. I suspect I was not asked because they did not care about my opinion.

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife department proposed the Canadian grey wolf introduction into the Yellowstone ecosystem. As ignorant as I am on these matters, I could tell them that the wolves would not stay there. Still the Clinton administration approved the wolf reintroduction. No administration or congress since has tried to do anything serious about it. Wolves have been a part of the American wildlife for millennia. Even though they were not the same specie, they were wolves, so I too refer to it as a "reintroduction".

It is interesting that if the Canadian grey wolves had to be brought to the lower western states. If they are a much more lethal wolf than the old western grey wolf. Why did they not outcompete the natives here and take over long ago? The same can be asked about concern over the Mexican lobos. Colorado people were claiming the Canadian wolves will/would decimate their Mexican cousins.

I admit I know little about wolf ecology. I certainly do not know enough to go around acting like the house is on fire. I rest assured the situation is not dire. Hunting is not going away and everything will balance out.

Our pastor likes to claim that all of this woke stuff is a sign that Jesus will be coming soon. Jesus may arrive anytime, but I doubt He is waiting for some American politician to displease our pastor so He has a reason to take over. I do not think the Colorado winter is a sign of His return either. jmho. :D
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby Indian Summer » 03 27, 2023 •  [Post 27]

My good friend Will sent these pics from the weekend. He lives in Alpine. Western Wyoming right on the Idaho border. The snow has been this deep since late November…. In the valley. Top of the fence posts. I can only imagine what the high country looks like.
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Re: Colorado Winter kill

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 03 27, 2023 •  [Post 28]

I’m locking this thread one last time. I’ll address the way ahead in the morning. Hang in there WT members…..we’ll be back on track soon. r/RJ
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