Rethinking my max range with a bow on live animals

[82ndreddevil]

So I am one of those guys that likes to shoot field tips out to 100 yards. Its fun and nothing tells you your bow is well tuned than seeing what it does at long range. Plus its a good opportunity to try to win a beer or two off of a friend. I also thought of it as a training tool. I figured if I can shoot well at 100 yards than a 60 yard elk shot should be just a chip shot. Wrong! Last year I killed a spike at 55 yards. It was a fast encounter and I had to guestimate the range, turned out I guessed well and I got him down with no issue. This year I found new challenges. I found that for one, for me there is a difference at drawing back on a large bull than a spike. When I draw back on big bulls I shake a little in the hands and my breathing gets real rapid. I even have a hard time focusing on the correct pin. I keep saying to myself focus, focus, focus, but still cant. I eventually got my bull down from 44 yards. I hit him a little further back and higher than I intended but he only went 150 yards before he fell over dead. Yes it was a clean kill but it bothers me that I was off my mark on where I was intending on putting that arrow. So I have done some reflecting on how to improve for the future and I want to see what some of you guys think or recommendations since I consider myself still a novice bow hunter. First thing is I am going to shorten my game. 60 yards is out of the question until I can pull back and hold on a bull as well as I can on any other target. Second is I am going to pull some pins off my sight. The issue of having a hard time focusing on the right pin cause I feel like I am looking at Christmas tree of lights needs to be simplified. So now my sight has three pins; 20,30,40. I use a MBG Ascent so I can still practice, practice, practice at longer ranges. I also mentioned before that last years elk I didn't use my rangefinder. Even though it worked out, I do regret making that decision to take that shot without ranging him. That situation offered a greater chance of going wrong than it did at going right. It just happened to go right. So I told myself that if I am doing a call set up or sitting at a water hole I will continue to try to range reference points such as trees rocks etc all round me. But if I got into another situation where they just pop out of the middle of nowhere and you got to act quick and if taking the time to range him is too much than it wasn't meant to be. What are your guys thoughts?

[CurlyTail]

That is an excellent analysis. I have very little to add.

I did about the same thing this season. I drilled a Spike Bull at 30 yards no nerves, but shot over a huge Nebraska Bull at 40 yards - nervous as a cat! The Bull I missed I guessed at 40 yards, but did not range him since he was on high alert and had spotted me hiding in the shadows. I should have ranged him, and if that caused him to bolt - so be it. Turns out he really was at 40 yards, and I just missed high due to the shaking and nervous excitement.

I use a 3 pin slider and like it very much - good choice. But you just have to range them, even if you think that you do not have time, expecially if they are over 35 yards. I found that the Elk are jumpy and startle, but do not actually bolt and run until they have truly identified the threat . You have more time than you think.

Do as I say, not as I do. Maybe someday I will be calm at the moment of truth.

[olympushunt]

82nd, you have commendable morals and ethics regarding your effective range. Far more than some folks. I am guilty of taking shots I shouldn't have. My last bull...although I killed it and it was one of my most quick expiring bulls, I really shouldn't have shot. If I had to do it over I would like to think I could refrain. I was off on my guess and being off even a little bit at long distance REALLY makes a difference. That and it was a poor shot selection. I kick myself for taking a stupid shot. Anyway, just the fact you are putting this much thought into your shots makes me think you are fine. If you are comfortable with it take it. I used to think anyone taking shots past 60 is begging for trouble but after my buddy center punched a muley in front of me at 83 yards it made me realize I shouldn't put my own limitations onto the shoulders of others that are clearly better than I am.
I agree with you that practicing out to 100 is an excellent idea. It really magnifies any flaws in your form and shooting equipment to the point you are forced to fine tune to the extreme. This doesn't mean you can or should shoot at animals that far. There are those that are plenty lethal out that far though I'm sure. I know guys who shoot higher poundages than the average and use only one pin. I practice with the one pin set up. An extra sight system isn't all that expensive in the grand scheme and will help you focus on just the one pin. I am just careful to switch back to my 5 pin set up well before season. But like I said I know guys who hunt with one pin on a high poundage set up and it eliminates that problem you spoke of. You just have to get your arms in shape. I don't have the shoulder/arm to shoot 70 so that isn't in the cards for me. I like the idea though. Their bows shoot flat enough they know how much compensation to make if they can't make the super quick adjustment. One thing peeps should consider though (often this important deal gets ignored) is how much KE are you delivering at 60, 70, 80 yards? People lighten the load to flatten their trajectory but like the .223 bullet compared to an 30 caliber...the bottom end falls out very quickly down the road. How many people calculate their KE? Lots right? A guy chronos his arrows and makes the calculation right? I have 68 ft lbs of energy and am good to go? That chrono was 5 feet in front of the bow....not 80 yards! A 350 grain arrow will lose it's energy much faster than a 500 grainer. The only reason I think about this is one time many years ago (when we were first starting flinging arrows) I witnessed Swede shoot at a doe. She was like 55-60 away and his shot was ON the money. Right behind her shoulder. It hit a rib and bounced back. I think maybe the point of the broadhead went in....lol. Other than a bruised rib I think she was no worse for the wear. That was an eye opener for me. This was back in the day with forged risers and bows not nearly as powerful as they are today but it still makes me think about that aspect when shooting long distances.

[Swede]

I limit myself to 40 yards on any animal. Too much can go wrong on longer shots. I prefer 20 yard shots or less. I feel I am in total control then. Besides I am no champion shooter. We need to be very realistic in our appraisal of our skills.
Some additional things to be mindful of are: Is the animal traveling with others or alone? If it is with others, especially trailing, it is likely to take off at any moment if the others have moved away. Is the animal relaxed or on high alert? If alert, any movement or sound can set them off. I have seen a bull bolt away instantly leaving a water hole because a squirrel started chattering. Did I see everything in the arrow's flight path, and measure the distance at which an arrow can come into contact with it? Is our bow and are our arrows really tuned to perfection? I know people that spend very little time and effort checking this out, and after days of hunting adjustments need to be made. When I got back home after this season I started practicing right away. The first thing I noticed is that my sights were off six inches at 40 yards. That is not good, especially when I know I can be off some too. Errors rarely compensate for each other. They are compounded.

[Swede]

I was writing a response to the thread when Oly posted. I agree and understand how his friend can shoot significantly longer distances than I feel comfortable with. He is an excellent shot, doesn't get nervous and shoots a high poundage bow. He sized up the situation perfectly.
Oly: So you still remember that doe I shot at. Another detail that I think is significant, was she was up a steep slope above us, and I was shooting a light arrow from a bow with a long overdraw. Oly wanted me to leave her alone, but I thought I could hit her. Well I did, sort of. Penetration of the arrow was the last thing on my mind. She probably thought "Darn flies r gittin a much ornerier these days. I'm headin out of here."

[WapitiTalk1]

Really good thread and comments gentlemen! I personally, would not take an "initial" shot at a big game animal over 40-45 yards in most all situations. Yes, I would take a longer shot to get a second arrow in a target but that's it. So many things can happen after an arrow is released that will ruin a hunt and potentially end with a bad hit.

[lamrith]

Great post and you are to be commended for continuing to think about your abilities as a hunter. I am a new hunter and still evaluating my own abilities so I can very much appreciate hearing this from other hunters. Buck fever, elk fever, antleritus, etc can strike anyone and the fact you guys are posting and admitting it speaks volumes of the character of hunters here on WT.

Great points about KE as well. Also having fresh super sharp broadheads to put that power to use.

82nd: If the 3 pin is too cluttered maybe think about spacing them out some? 20-30-40 is a std, but maybe just pull the middle pin and do 20-40? Most of the new bows the drop in that range is not very large and that may be contributing to your issue if your pins are stacked up tight to each other.

[WapitiTalk1]

"Antleritus", you crack me up Larry . Haven't heard that one before.

[82ndreddevil]

Lamrith,

I'm sorry I meant to clarify that I have reduced my sight down to 3 pins. 20,30,40 and then with it being a MBG Ascent I can still dial it out further if I get more comfortable. But I am considering making that 20 yard pin into a 10 yard pin just to open up my sight picture a hair more. Thank you all for the comments and input. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that gets the jitters when the big guys come in. It also makes me feel better knowing that even some of the veterans shoot a shorter distance on live game. Makes it real clear to me that just because you have 5 pins it doesn't mean you have to plan on using them.

[Tigger]

I have a hard time with accepting longer than roughly 50 yards as ethical. at 50 yards, it is a half a second. Getting out to that 80 mark or so means a full second. So many things can go wrong in a second on even a calm, unaware animal. It may just decide to take a step. instant paunch hit. I have no doubt people can make the shot (in calm conditions), it is the time lag that I cannot get passed. Same thing with those ultra long range rifle shots. get out past 1,000 yards and it takes a full second for the bullet to get there. That is just my .02 though and should be taken as only that.

[lamrith]

Lamrith,

I'm sorry I meant to clarify that I have reduced my sight down to 3 pins. 20,30,40 and then with it being a MBG Ascent I can still dial it out further if I get more comfortable. But I am considering making that 20 yard pin into a 10 yard pin just to open up my sight picture a hair more. Thank you all for the comments and input. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that gets the jitters when the big guys come in. It also makes me feel better knowing that even some of the veterans shoot a shorter distance on live game. Makes it real clear to me that just because you have 5 pins it doesn't mean you have to plan on using them.

Ahhh.. I was considering mentioning 10yrd pin to you as well, but sometimes depending on bow setup you actually have to raise the bow as the 10yrd the arrow has not risen past the sight picture yet. I am pretty sure my bow hits low @ 10yrds if I use the 20yrd pin, so a 10yrd pin would be closer to the 30yrd and cause more clutter.

I have a 5pin now, and the 20-30-40 are very tight to each other, I know I have used the wrong pin before when practicing at home. DOH

Definitely very valid point Tigger!! The caveat I would have with a Long rifle shot is that it takes the sound longer than a second to get there, so an non spooked animal has less chance to hear your shot and jump. The bullet has already connected even before the supersonic crack reaches them. That is not to say they do not take a step, or move for some other reason, but the act of the shot is a non issue. Not the case with a 300fps bow, the sound has reached the animal when the arrow is barely 1/3 of the way there, ask many a white-tail hunter about how those deer duck a string even on short 30yrd shots. All this is a non issue in the places I hunted this year, getting a clear shot free of brush past 20yrds was a miracle.

I crack myself up to at times RJ, though I am not sure if that is a good thing, people tend to look at you strange when you just start laughing for no reason.

[Brendan]

For me, I don't think it's always about the range. You have to keep yourself thinking, in the moment, and try to pay attention to what you're doing and ask yourself if it's a shot "you've got".

When I shot my first elk, I knew he was coming. I had time to get ready, set my feet, draw, breathe, go through the shot routine, settle the pin as he walked up over a small rise. Perfect shot where I aimed on a 30 yard frontal shot. I'd practiced that shot, knew I could hit it, had time to get ready, my pin was steady, drilled him.

This year, I got surprised by an Elk. I think he was a small 4x5. Came in FAST and I wasn't ready - sitting on a log with my bow at my feet, no arrow nocked and I heard him come crashing out of the woods and through a creek about 80 yards away as I'd let out a couple cow calls. Quickly got ready and came to full draw fast at the last minute as he came to 24 yards frontal. A shot I can make all day every day inside a baseball sized group. Except - the adrenaline shot I got from being surprised had me all over the place. I held waiting for my pin to settle, it didn't, he saw me flinch and busted. That was inside my effective range for that shot, but the pin wasn't steady, I didn't shoot. That was day 2. Come Day 10 I really would have liked to have that one back.

A day later, I had a bigger bull come in at 40 yards broadside, but stopped with vitals behind a tree at 40 yards after I came to full draw. Again - had more time to get my head in the game, thinking through my shot routine - pin was solid, but he never stepped out. If he did, he was dead...

But then again, I also blew a 25 yard shot on a whitetail last year from 25-30 feet up a tree. Had time to get ready, short shot, thought I smoked him, and I hit high in the lungs just under the spine. Didn't find him until 2 weeks later when the meat was gone as there wasn't a speck of blood. Thought I had that one - pure and simple an execution error on a "softball" of a shot. So I guess it doesn't always go to plan.

Moral of the story for me - I have a "max range" - but at the end of the day you most often know if you've got it or not as soon as you draw back if you take the time to think about it, regardless of the range.

Also - I have a single pin and don't need to adjust it under 40 yards. I know my holds and have a small reference "dot" in white paint on the upright that I can use.

[Trumkin the Dwarf]

I'll second (third/fourth/fifteenth or whatever number I am)what everyone else has said in commendation! Good on you to admit limitations and cut your range on an animal to deal with it!

Now, that still doesn't take care of the shakes on a big bull though. I suspect some of those shakes can be ironed out by practicing for it.
*Disclaimer* these are only suggestions, and maybe you already do all these things, or maybe you think they are dumb. By all means, feel free to ignore me! I'm just hoping to help. *End Disclaimer*

Mental visualization of tough shot scenarios may help. Visualizing success is huge for some athletes. I haven't done much visualization, but have had good success with my nerves by slowing down my breathing (especially when behind a rifle). But that is just how I personally handle the mental game. I have a mantra/ phrase to fall back on as well. I might tell myself all summer that "it doesn't matter how your stomach feels, it's what is in your veins that counts (Ice water)." In the moment of battle, the cue to go stone cold robot would get shortened to a mental reminder "Ice in the veins". It might seem trite, but shakes are physical AND mental in nature, and I want to win both battles. It helps if you can memorize the feeling of turning on the autopilot and becoming completely calm/centered.

I dunno, maybe none of that makes sense... i know for me it's all in my head. Maybe something I said will stick with you.

Physically:
Have you tried doing 20-30 mountain climbers or jumping jacks before your shot at the target when practicing? You can really up the adrenaline by making it a shot on one of them iron cut out targets too... .

That probably won't get you all the way there, but hopefully it helps!

p.s. if I shot compound, I'd be rocking a single pin!

[Swede]

We may all have different ways to deal with excessive excitement or Buck Fever. I have not been troubled with it much and not for a long time. I still have a routine I go through that is my mental process.
1. I do not watch the elk. I can find it again when I am ready. Sure I need to know when I need to stay still, but a glance here and there is sufficient. Sometimes I wait to move when the elk cannot see me. All of the time the focus is on what I am doing and need to do. I don't care about the elk at this point.
2. I focus on what I need to do and maintain total silence. I am getting ready to draw and make the shot.
3. When I draw and aim, I am still focusing on just making the shot. Take time here. This may be your season right here. Remember your follow through. All these things are on my mind.

Also, I will not be shooting at the elk. I am just shooting at a small spot on the hide. That spot is where I want the arrow to hit, but attention is paid on the arrow path through the body cavity that will bring about a quick humane kill.

[82ndreddevil]

Trunkin,

What your saying makes a lot of sense, I have spent periods of my life working on that type of mindset. As for the reps between shots I have a Siloam routine I do on occasion. I'd do some push ups between shots and sprints to retrieve arrows. Also I've tried shooting with my pack on. Now there is one factor I am not doing that I should be doing, and your post reminded me of it. I haven't practiced shooting while sitting on my stool. And I shot my bull while sitting on my stool.

Swede,

I remember the first bull I drew on during this hunt. He was a 300 plus bull. I was taken by his mass, counting his points and noting how long his brow tines were. What I should have done was think about my draw cycle, proper grip, and fundamentals. Instead I rushed my opportunity to draw on him to get the shot off. Needless to say I got busted.


Thank you all for your help again, this site is great for help from good people!

[Z Barebow]

Great post. I won't pass judgement. The fact that you are questioning yourself on a public forum, speaks to your character.

I don't know if it is experience, (In tracking mediocre shots) or other factors. But I have relived this encounter almost every day since it happened.

This year, I passed on a beautiful herd bull at 46 yards. I was in a tree stand and had ranged multiple landmarks, but not where the herd and bull passed. (I ranged the spot the next day). He stood in this spot for ~ 30-40 sec, wide open and quartering away. A few cows were in view and I was worried that I might get spotted. Additionally he was on my right side and I would have to shoot cross body. Lastly, it was ~ 10 minutes after sunset. I likely would not have been able to see hit at that range and I would have likely waited until morning to track. (I am color blind) I just was not confident, so I didn't even draw back my bow.

This was the 4th time in 3 days I had saw him.

As I watched him, I still thought he might come into one of my other shooting locations. Not to be. I thought I would rather have him bugling in the mountains, making new elk vs the possibility of me wounding him and not hearing him bugle again.

I know in my heart I made the right decision. This decision was reinforced when it rained much of the night and I woke up to 2 inches of snow. Again, unless he would have died on a predictable route I would have been left with gridding it out. (Not a good feeling).

Last year, I killed a mule deer at 44 yards, but it felt different. I was able to range the deer. I was confident. And I was able to shoot him.

My max practice range is 50 yards w/o sights (barebow). But I choose this style. My thrill comes from the intimacy of having the animal close and executing the shot. I didn't feel that intimacy with that the opportunity on that bull and I felt like it would be a "poke and hope" that is not who I am. I can live with my decision. The regret of a poor shot on him would have eaten me alive.

I know my story might not be much help, but your story inspired me to tell mine!

Shooting at an animal is different than a target. Yes an animal can move. But you also owe it to an animal to be as effective and humane as possible. A paper target on a bale does not receive the same level of respect and responsibility.

[ElkNut1]

Yes, we all have limitations, the point is to recognize them & stick to them, easier said than done when in the heat of the moment! Many issues may arise in various encounters, distance is just part of the equation, having the stars line up so to speak have a way of materializing to those exercising patience! It's one of my worst qualities! (grin) Good job guys!

ElkNut1

[Old school]

So many good comments and posts here - that's just one of the reasons that I enjoy this forum - thanks guys! We are able to keep it real, civil and not condescending or combative.

I shoot both a compound and traditional and have found a couple things helpful - #1 its all about discipline for me. Discipline in having a max shooting range which is less than my practice range. For me personally it is 40 yards right now - I shoot 60 at the practice range. And sticking to that max range no matter what - easier said than done.

Then its all about discipline during the shot. Discipline and "routine" - breathing, drawing, anchoring, release, and body orientation in regards to the animal (I want the shot coming off my left shoulder since I'm right handed, etc...). When I see an animal, I start with the body orientation in regards to where I expect the shot to happen, then breathing, drawing, anchoring, and I practice this while shooting my target - visualize it.

That's just my way of doing it and many others have basically said the same thing just in different words. Thanks for your post!

--Mitch

[olympushunt]

Now, that still doesn't take care of the shakes on a big bull though. I suspect some of those shakes can be ironed out by practicing for it.
*Disclaimer* these are only suggestions, and maybe you already do all these things, or maybe you think they are dumb. By all means, feel free to ignore me! I'm just hoping to help. *End Disclaimer*

Mental visualization of tough shot scenarios may help. Visualizing success is huge for some athletes. I haven't done much visualization, but have had good success with my nerves by slowing down my breathing (especially when behind a rifle). But that is just how I personally handle the mental game. I have a mantra/ phrase to fall back on as well. I might tell myself all summer that "it doesn't matter how your stomach feels, it's what is in your veins that counts (Ice water)." In the moment of battle, the cue to go stone cold robot would get shortened to a mental reminder "Ice in the veins". It might seem trite, but shakes are physical AND mental in nature, and I want to win both battles. It helps if you can memorize the feeling of turning on the autopilot and becoming completely calm/centered.

I dunno, maybe none of that makes sense... i know for me it's all in my head. Maybe something I said will stick with you.

Malachi is right on with it being a mental game. Do as much as you can to visualize scenarios in the heat of the moment. Another thing is to practice with pressure. Sure there is NOTHING that will compare to a big bull breathing on you but go to the practice range or even better a 3D shoot and put a significant wager on your shoot. Back in my college days when 5 bucks meant A LOT it was loser buys lunch. Heap the pressure on!

[lamrith]

I'll second (third/fourth/fifteenth or whatever number I am)what everyone else has said in commendation! Good on you to admit limitations and cut your range on an animal to deal with it!

Now, that still doesn't take care of the shakes on a big bull though. I suspect some of those shakes can be ironed out by practicing for it.
*Disclaimer* these are only suggestions, and maybe you already do all these things, or maybe you think they are dumb. By all means, feel free to ignore me! I'm just hoping to help. *End Disclaimer*

Mental visualization of tough shot scenarios may help. Visualizing success is huge for some athletes. I haven't done much visualization, but have had good success with my nerves by slowing down my breathing (especially when behind a rifle). But that is just how I personally handle the mental game. I have a mantra/ phrase to fall back on as well. I might tell myself all summer that "it doesn't matter how your stomach feels, it's what is in your veins that counts (Ice water)." In the moment of battle, the cue to go stone cold robot would get shortened to a mental reminder "Ice in the veins". It might seem trite, but shakes are physical AND mental in nature, and I want to win both battles. It helps if you can memorize the feeling of turning on the autopilot and becoming completely calm/centered.

I dunno, maybe none of that makes sense... i know for me it's all in my head. Maybe something I said will stick with you.

Physically:
Have you tried doing 20-30 mountain climbers or jumping jacks before your shot at the target when practicing? You can really up the adrenaline by making it a shot on one of them iron cut out targets too... .

That probably won't get you all the way there, but hopefully it helps!

p.s. if I shot compound, I'd be rocking a single pin!

I was going to post similar about practicing shooting on that high/surge and getting used to being in it. The problem is though I have not had my day in the spotlight to take a shot yet myself so was not sure if my tips really work, but here is what I have done to try and prep for it.

1. Def do workouts and then shoot, while your heart rate is still screaming and pounding and you are huffing and puffing. I am blessed that I can shoot my bow at home. So when I would do a workout leading to the season I would make it a full test. After the 2-3 miles with 30# pack at a brisk walk I go straight into the backyard (no stop in house, no take off pack etc, I keep pace and go straight to bow, pickup, nock and and shoot from 30yrds. I note that 1st shot specifically then shoot the rest of quiver at another target. Breath control is pretty tough with the pace I was finishing at and I have checked heart-rate after shooting and had it still in excess of 140bpm so a good gauge of ability after chasing a herd.
2. Hunt everything you can (legally) with your bow as often as possible, especially "Varmints". Squirrels, birds, rabbits etc. Those small target, super skittish prey you have to get in close to. That stalk can really get your adrenalin going and that Target anxiety as well which is the real killer. My bird of choice is starlings as they like to tear apart the eves of my Garage nesting each year and there are billions of them and they are legal to deal with. They are so skittish now I can hardly open my back door and they fly off. Have to go out the side door and stalk to garage and then take shot just leaning my upper body out, great for dialing in those off balance shots when an elk comes in from the wrong direction and you cannot get set well.

[olympushunt]

Actually quite good ideas Larry. I have digger squirrels around here that are like what you are talking about for being suuuuper skittish. Dang it is bad how something with a brain the size of a pee can consistently outsmart me! TIcks me off! lol. Hey! I thought of another adrenaline pumper. Take 4 pieces of your wifes favorite china and put them on all sides of your bulls eye. If that doesn't get your heart rate up you are probably dead.