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Bedding Area Tactics

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Bedding Area Tactics

Postby Kessler10 » 12 21, 2016 •  [Post 1]

Thoughts on hunting bedding areas? I think there is an archived thread on this from Paul but wanted to get some feedback on more specific scenarios for bedding areas.

If you know a north facing slope that elk use as their bedding area/as an area for retreat......... what is the best way to hunt it.

More specifically.......

Is it a good idea/tactic if you can sneak into this area from the top during the early morning darkness...... Setup high in the bedding area and wait for the sun to come up. Maybe letting out a couple soft cow calls and one location bugle, but other than that remaining fairly quite until you start to hear them come your way?

2)
Say you get on some elk in their bedding area in the morning and do not spook them. Is it a good idea to stay in that bedding area for the rest of the afternoon and just sit quiet, maybe a few cow calls every hour or 2.
When I say bedding area I am talking about a spot i am sure they use for bedding, but also sure they use it as a general retreat spot.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby Swede » 12 21, 2016 •  [Post 2]

Kessler, what you are suggesting sounds like tree stand or ground blind hunting. If you can reliably predict where the elk will arrive at, then getting there before them is a great plan. The remainder a matter of having a good set-up. Like you suggested, I often come to my stand directly from above to limit the area I contaminate with my scent. The scent does not linger long in an area, but if the elk are there, one whiff is enough to cause them to leave. By arriving at or before first light the elk are probably still in their feeding area and away then.
Don't get hung up on North facing slopes. Niches or timber patches on generally south facing areas can hold elk hide outs. There are many reasons elk don't limit themselves to one aspect for bedding. Proximity to feed and water among them. Be aware of other hunters too, as many are hunting north slopes and the elk will move away. Where I hunt, elk can be seen on a ranch in the heat of the day right out in an open field. Sometimes they go and bed in the willows along a stream, but not always.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby saddlesore » 12 21, 2016 •  [Post 3]

I would worry about the thermals that drift down in the cool morning air. If you are above,that might get your scent down to them.
Mid day, those thermals would be swirling. No telling what direction unless a predominate breeze is blowing. Afternoon,the reverse is true. Which is a good reason to back on out and not be in there all day. Then in the evening come down for the top.

Purely conjecture until you know which way the elk are leaving or returning to the bedding area.

I think you would be better going cross hill side at the level you think they would be knowing you don't use a tree stand.

I always liked to let an area set a day or two after I have been in before I return to it
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby WapitiTalk1 » 12 21, 2016 •  [Post 4]

Swede, saddlesore..... good stuff. Another Tech tip: remember that elk "normally" will move to their bedding areas, or really, to anywhere, with the wind in their favor (this elk security measure/phenomenon should be considered when moving on elk, or, staging yourself to where you think a certain squad of elk may be bedding). Oftentimes, a hunter must use a wide approach route to prevent being winded.

Kessler10: "Is it a good idea/tactic if you can sneak into this area from the top during the early morning darkness...... Setup high in the bedding area and wait for the sun to come up. Maybe letting out a couple soft cow calls and one location bugle, but other than that remaining fairly quite until you start to hear them come your way?"

a. Sneaking in from the top is oftentimes not the best plan of attack with the mountain state thermals moving down from pre-dawn through mid morning. If you're moving in to a target spot (perhaps by the bedroom) well before you feel they'll arrive, you may be OK but ensure you set up well to the side of the spot to keep your scent to yourself (this can be very tricky as thermals/wind are not as predictable as some would think).
b. As with wallow, trail intersection, really any fixed spot type hunting (in this case, the bedroom) let the attractor be the attractor... no need to make any elk sounds. You'll hear them coming easy enough and at that point, determine the best way to get into a position to greet the incoming group w/o being winded.

"Say you get on some elk in their bedding area in the morning and do not spook them. Is it a good idea to stay in that bedding area for the rest of the afternoon and just sit quiet, maybe a few cow calls every hour or 2. When I say bedding area I am talking about a spot i am sure they use for bedding, but also sure they use it as a general retreat spot."

a. Sitting by an active (elk are there) bedding area can be a high risk endeavor but certainly can pan out if the stars align just right. Remember, Barney Bull will oftentimes get up and do a herd count, moving throughout the group and not only doing a head check but checking for signs of estrus. If things line up just right, you may be able to get a fleeting shot window at him. If you make any elk noises close to a bedding area, the elk's safety zone has just been disrupted. That can certainly be a bad thing as now, the entire herd (eyeballs, ears, X ??) is fixated on the spot the sounds came from (you've been pinpointed), but, can be a fruitful endeavor if you've got the wind/thermals and you pull the old switcheroo or aptly titled by Elknut as "the threat". Doing that will certainly garner a swift and immediate response from Barney but ensure you're nocked and ready to receive company ;)
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby cohunter » 12 21, 2016 •  [Post 5]

If you know elk are bedded in an area and also know the locations of nearby feed or water, hunt the food and water - water through the middle of the day and routes to feed in the evening (or from feed in the morning) However, in our area we've found that elk often rotate their bedding areas. An area you put them to bed one night is not necessarily the area they'll return to the next day - in fact they rarely return to the exact same bedding area the next day. It's not a bad spot to try, but I don't think our encounters would suggest any sort of pattern. Encounters seem to be what you'd predict choosing any good but randomly selected elky habitat.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby Swede » 12 21, 2016 •  [Post 6]

Good point Cohunter. Where I hunt you are doing well after the first few days if elk return to a bedding area more than once a week. At the very beginning they may hang around a special spot, but they soon are on the move.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby saddlesore » 12 22, 2016 •  [Post 7]

Studies have shown that elk only stay in one area 2-3 days
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby >>>---WW----> » 12 22, 2016 •  [Post 8]

Personally, I try to avoid the actual bedding areas that I know of. However, I will hunt the fringes and try to either wait them out or call them out. Calling usually gets a response from the bull but he may not want to come out to play. However it does give you his location and you know they are bedded in there. A good tactic would be to set up close to exit spots and catch them as they come out of the bedding area in the evening.

Elk usually bed in areas that they feel secure in. They need sanctuary or a place to rest in peace after being harassed by hunters, rutting activity, i.e. Bust them out of the area and you will spend the rest of your hunt trying to relocate another herd. BUT! hunt the fringe and never let them smell you and you can hunt the same herd day after day and have a great hunt.

I will hunt them every day. But when the thermal shifts, I'm out of there knowing that I can have fun and a good chance the next day.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby Swede » 12 26, 2016 •  [Post 9]

WW makes an interesting point about elk coming back to a bedding area if they are not busted out. I have spots the elk use day after day for extended periods. I also hunt bedding grounds that are used only sporadically. These bedding places are in close proximity on opposing east and west sides of the same canyon. I really can't say why one is used daily, and one gets use only about once a week or even less. The one that is used daily is not used that way every year either.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby ElkNut1 » 12 26, 2016 •  [Post 10]

Hunting bedding areas requires reading the situation for the day. You must fit in to each individual encounter, they are not hunted equally across the board. If you try to treat all bedded elk the same you will have a poor tract record of success. You will most likely push most of those elk away! It's an art that anyone can grasp hold of & have reasonable success. When handled properly bedding areas are awesome to take nice bulls from!

I don't want to hijack this thread so will be happy to start a new one & share a few things we look for & our results as we hunt bedding areas.

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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby Swede » 12 26, 2016 •  [Post 11]

The way I hunt bedding areas depends on how I am hunting. If I am tree stand hunting over a water hole in or next to a bedding area, I watch the wind and follow a route that will disturb the bedding area the least. If the tree stand is in the bedding area I have to cross some of it, so timing is often an issue. I have stands that I approach from different directions depending on the time of the day. For example I don't like to hike in under a bedding area when the diurnal winds are going to carry my scent uphill to the rascals. Slipping in from the side is better or maybe it is just a matter of contaminating the smallest area possible. I don't like going through thick brush or dead and down material that will announce my travel route and arrival at my stand. If I have a noisy place to go to, I may cow call to disguise my identity.
If I am calling, then I prefer to skirt the bedding area from down wind. Sometimes the bedding areas are too large to effectively skirt and sometimes I am in one before I realize just how significant it is. Whatever the case I have found it best to watch my scent (the wind) and minimize the area it impacts. In the morning and evening, when the diurnal winds are down slope, that usually means staying low on the slope. In the late morning through sundown that means staying up higher. Just remember you can fool an elk's ears by telling them you are another elk. Sometimes you can fool their eyes by stopping and staying in place, but you can't disguise your scent.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby ElkNut1 » 12 27, 2016 •  [Post 12]

On the more cautious side I agree with WW. It's a very good formula when there's little to no rutting activity. If you were to penetrate the bedding area in an aggressive fashion feeling the herd bull should come to you just because he has cows then your odds decrease in having an opportunity at him. Catch him in the same area with a hot cow/cows then you can now have a very good chance of forcing him into a defensive action or pull a satellite bull away that may be nearby. The secret to hunting bedding areas is (there is no secret!) (grin) Treat them the same as you would a feeding, watering, wallowing, mineral lick, etc area. Simple as that! Timing is needed in any of those areas when calling is needed. At times as WW mentions a strategic ambush can be the answer! Read the situation for the day you're there & form a plan accordingly. We have taken many bulls in the bedding area through calling, many more than ambushing. I like the calling aspect best because of our past results but we wait for the right time before getting aggressive, we want a hot cow in the group at that time.

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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby >>>---WW----> » 12 27, 2016 •  [Post 13]

Like I said before, I try my best to avoid known bedding areas. However, if I accidently stumble into an unknown one, here is a tactic that is dynamite if you have the patients to pull it off. A lot of luck is involved. And you may be in for a long wait.

You need to locate a cow and get setup within your effective shooting range of her. During the day, the bull will get up and wander through his cows checking for signs of estrus. When he comes to the cow you are already setup on, you are all set to take him.

I have pulled it off a couple of times but it is risky at best. Any swirling wind can set the whole herd running.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby Swede » 12 27, 2016 •  [Post 14]

Hunting bedding areas is about risk. If you go in and stay on the ground, and move around in there, as opposed to going into a tree stand; there is a strong probability you will bust them out. If you go to a stand in the early morning, before the elk arrive, and watch the wind, you are much less likely to disturb any elk. That is no guarantee, but the odds are more in your favor.
Hunting bedding areas on the ground may be a worthwhile risk if you are not hunting there again for a long while, or if other elk pass through the area on a regular basis. But, if that general area is your prime hunting grounds, you don't want to push them out into parts unknown, or onto a ranch where they laugh at you from behind "No Trespassing" signs.
Even in late September (18th-25th) with my tag filled, I have more than once watched herds even for hours, and saw no sign of any rutting activity. At the same time I have observed satellite bulls moving in around the cows while the herd bull looked on. There was no cow in estrus. Unless it is obvious there is rutting, it is best to assume they are not. At the same time the herd bull was tending his cows as WW mentioned. I am no expert on elk psychology, but it just appeared to me since there was no cow in heat, the herd bull was not wasting energy running off the satellite bulls.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby ElkNut1 » 12 28, 2016 •  [Post 15]

That's why you hunt the fringes or destination spots when no hot cows/or rutting activity, they go hand in hand! When cows start coming into estrus it's a game changer & now the herd bull becomes aggressive & defensive when satellite bulls get too close to the hot cow physically or by sound with bugling trying to call the hot cow to themselves, not just any cow but the hot cow/cows! This is when all bulls become vulnerable! Timing is everything! The same will apply to a herd bull checking his cows, he does not check them intimately on a daily or hourly basis, he becomes more interested in scent checking them as cows start showing signs of starting their estrus cycle. Before that it's a crap shoot to hang around the cows long enough for his roaming around, the wind is your worst enemy as well as daylight at those times, too the cows may get up & move around on their own even when in these bedded areas. Lots of stuff can happen when out there. I'm sure many of us have experienced many of these actions. We in the ElkNut Crew have killed dozens of herd bulls, the # 1 method is calling, a few with excited cow calling but most with either a Challenge Bugle or Advertising bugle but it has to be when there is rutting action for best results.

On another note we've found the herd bull is moved to action much quicker during these rutting phases while he's still on his feet, once bedded it takes a real pestering to get him back up at times. Get to him before bedding or just after he's done bedding & things can happen fast & in the hunters favor!

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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby Swede » 12 28, 2016 •  [Post 16]

ElkNut1 wrote:When cows start coming into estrus it's a game changer


We talk on these forums like the elk breeding period runs from September 10 thru the first week of October. Sure, cows usually become receptive during that time, but a bull elk detects a cow's receptivity less than 1/2 day before he or another bull breeds her. Also it is worth noting; a lot of breeding occurs at night. To put it another way; unless you hear or see breeding activity, hunting into bedding areas is a crap shoot at best. Where I hunt it is rare to hear breeding activity. To make matters worse, it has been my luck that the winds were swirling unpredictably at the time I detected the activity.
I would just ask any hunter thinking about plunging into a bedding area, hoping to find bulls busily preoccupied with cows in heat; what evidence do you have to support that notion? If you can see the elk, or hear the noise of breeding activity, then go in if the situation, including the wind is right.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby ElkNut1 » 12 30, 2016 •  [Post 17]

Isn't that what I've written above? It's pretty simple to tell when there's a cow in or nearing estrus, this can happen several days prior to breeding not a 1/2 day in advance. Cows are in estrus 12-16 hours & have no way to dictate their time to breed & make sure it's at night only. They are not programmed robots! (grin) They come in when they come in! Even if at night when this happens they are still in estrus come daylight within that 12-16 hour time frame.

When hot cows are present there are generally multiple bulls present bugling for the hot cows attention. When no breeding is going on bugling is fairly quiet & this is the time to hunt fringes or destination spots & not barge right into the bedding areas thinking it will work no matter the rutting status! Again, it's all about timing of the rut, the rut means hot cows & good bugling action happening! If you are not seeing action like this on a yearly basis you are not covering enough ground.

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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby Swede » 12 30, 2016 •  [Post 18]

From the best text available on elk biology: ELK OF NORTH AMERICA ECOLOGY AND MANAGEMENT, "Elk bulls detect a cow's receptivity about a half day or less before it (breeding) occurs." Morrison pg. 267 first paragraph under "Breeding" section.
"If a bull cannot detect a cow is becoming receptive, there is no breeding action, so you don't want to charge into bedding areas thinking there are hot cows with aggressive bulls to be picked off." Swede 2016

I agree with Elknut that you can determine where there is a breeding sequence taking place by listening for it. If you don't hear it, it ain't happening.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby Swede » 12 30, 2016 •  [Post 19]

I hope Kessler and others have advanced their understanding of hunting bedding areas, and a tip of the hat to Elknut for sharing his insights and recommendations. He has in the past, and still does give great advise to elk hunters that have the passion, but need more information. I too look to him for insights that go beyond my limited understanding.

I have not experienced much of what could be learned about elk biology. Here is what I have observed and what I believe are the implications of those observations.

1. During late Aug-early September bulls determine dominance. This happens shortly after the bulls remove the "velvet" on their antlers.
2. When herd bulls come to the cows in early September, dominance has already been established. Satellite bulls still hang around. I believe the lesser bulls are allowed to intermingle when no cow is showing signs of coming into estrus. (High probability, but I cannot prove it)
2. The amount of time that you can hear a breeding sequence is only a few minutes. (Personal observation) If you have the wind, this is a great time to move in for a shot.
3. Herd bulls patrol their cows and will try to run off lesser bulls including Nimrods that try to sound like a bull. (Personal observation) I believe this period of lesser tolerance by herd bulls for satellite bulls, or others trying to take cows, is what Elknut is taking advantage of.
What I cannot be dogmatic about is how long this low level of tolerance lasts. Is it the less than half day period that cows show the sign of coming into estrus? Is it multiple cows coming into estrus extending the time the herd bull is highly aggressive? Do bulls continue to be aggressive well after the cow has been bred? I have not studied herd dynamics enough to say. Here is what I have observed: In late September multiple bulls often can intermingle with a large herd that had an obvious herd bull. Also I have had bulls come to confront me, and I have observed satellite bulls keeping their distance. Just what is cause and effect or the reason things happen the way they do, is beyond my experience or education. That is why I say hunting bedding areas when you have no evidence of breeding is a crap shoot and likely to end poorly.
I don't think what Elknut is saying is that much different, but reflects a slightly different understanding of what is taking place.
This has been a fun campfire discussion, and the coffee is still steaming. If anyone would like to share here, I will pour another cup of coffee and sit back and listen.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby ElkNut1 » 12 31, 2016 •  [Post 20]

Swede, thanks for the info & quote. With all due respect I believe the Book is not accurate. Not sure how they performed their study? I've talked with owners of ranches that raise elk. Years ago when I first became interested in this I received phone info from them about a cow coming into estrus on a fairly large scale not just a couple of them. They said cows showed signs of dripping in the pens or their beds & when this took place the bulls had to be removed from the cows presence or they would combat until horns were broke or even near death fighting. I am more apt to believe this than the 1/2 day theory from my personal experience as well.

When rutting action is going on it easily will last all day long, sure it can taper a bit depending on hot weather especially but it does not die off in a couple of hours from start to finish. Rutting action can even last for several days as different cows come in & out of estrus. Size of herd can reflect the length of time one may experience. At this time the herd bull & satellites both are the most vulnerable to calling!

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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby Swede » 12 31, 2016 •  [Post 21]

I know nothing about elk in pens, but it doesn't appear that the two points are really at odds. Morrison claimed, in nature the cows get bred within 1/2 day or less. A bred cow does not stay in estrus. I don't see the conflict, the bulls wanted to breed even the cows in the pen. It doesn't appear from what Paul wrote that they wanted to wait over 1/2 day to get to them.
We also recognize that there can be 3 or up to 4 estrus periods at times, but not with bred cows. Most cows get bred during the first estrus period, or probably within the 1/2 day period. A few are not. Still, I wonder if all mature cows come into estrus every year.
I shot a cow years ago which I have commented on a few times here. I first observed her very early in the hunting season. She was a lone medium sized cow, two plus years old. Every time I went into this small basin I would see or hear her. She stayed there until the last Wednesday or Thursday of the season when I went back one last time and filled my tag. During the season I would call at her and observe her. She behaved as if she were deaf to all of my calls. She did not even look up to a bugle. She was worse than Oly as a teen responding to a call to chores. :D She was never with another elk, and I doubt she was ever bred.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby saddlesore » 12 31, 2016 •  [Post 22]

A lot of this discussion here has revolved around hunting bedding areas during the rut.

I hunt center fire rifle and muzzle loader. Here in Colorado, muzzle loader hunts are just at the beginning of rut and by the time center fire rifle season rolls around, peak rut is well past. The bulls might be still bugling , but do not respond to calls very well. Possibly due to the hunting pressure.

I hunt bedding ares, but pay attention to the wind, stay quiet and move slow. If person stays calm, remains still, and quiet, after the shot ( assuming you hit and kill one), the elk will many times just mill around and sometimes even go over and sniff the downed elk before moving off. Several times when I have had two tags, I have gone back and killed another elk fairly close to the previous one the next day or two. Sometimes I have taken another hunter in there and let him kill one.

A long as you don't do all that high fiving, yelling and jumping around, you won't spook the elk much. Process the elk quietly and get out of there. I take the mules back in,load up, and again do so quietly and quickly.

If a person gets hung up by all these hard and fast rules touted about elk hunting , they may end up getting frustrated and wonder why they can't kill an elk.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby saddlesore » 12 31, 2016 •  [Post 23]

Back in the late eighties,early nineties,my wife and I spent about ten years visiting Yellowstone during peak rut photographing elk.She did most of the picture taking,I mostly did the watching and observing.

When you are watching 70-80 elk it is pretty hard to say which cows are in estrus or for how long or how many times they get bred. However, when a cow is ready to breed, that bull will follow her around with it's nose up her butt and constantly be flicking his tongue out,getting that estrus scent. There might be some special scent that tells the bull when that cow ovulates. As with any animal estrus and ovulation are two different things. Ovulation happens fairly quick. The bull may try to mount the cow, but if she isn't quite receptive, she won't stand. Maybe she will only stand when she has ovulated. I'm not that much of a elk breeding biologist. The bull may breed her once,maybe three times. Elk breeding is a 5-10 second affair at most. Then he is done with her,and goes in search of another or maybe runs a sattelite bull off that snuck in while he was attending that cow.

At the last of the rut,the bulls are still bugling, but hoarse and their eyes are blood shot. Fighting has taken it's toll. The herd bull doesn't get to breed all the cows he has gathered up, many times those 2-4 sattelite bulls will sneak in and hop a cow or two while the big bull is busy following, breeding a cow or chasing another bull off. Then the cows that don't get bred comes back into estrus the next cycle around
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby Swede » 12 31, 2016 •  [Post 24]

I admit it is difficult to be definitive about just what happens with a cow in heat. Here is what I know or think I know on that subject. Most of this comes from my reading what biologists have written down. There is a preheat period when a cow starts showing signs of coming into heat. The bull will start to follow her around, and do what Saddlesore wrote about, but she won't stand for him. Many of us have observed this. The in-heat period is relatively short when the cow is receptive. I have observed it, and as Saddlesore wrote, this breeding time lasts only a few minutes. I think more than one bull may mount her at this time. After this short period, post in-heat, the cow still shows evidence of mucus and dirt on her, but she won't stand to be bred any more. It's over. Most breeding, about 70% occurs at night especially in warm weather. Conception happens in a few hours (about 4).
Then she goes and puts on her makeup and expects the bull to take her to dinner, or I guess breakfast at the nicest place in town.
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Re: Bedding Area Tactics

Postby saddlesore » 12 31, 2016 •  [Post 25]

Off subject. Most prey animals have evolved such their breeding takes place pretty fast.Also a whole species does it pretty much the same time.This causes the newborns to all be born relatively close in time to each other.Which in turn means more will survive predation.

On the other hand,predators take longer. Typically a dog, wolf, coyote is in heat 3 weeks and is receptive for about a week. Dogs in particular may breed with several different studs during that time there. Lions are in about a month and male lions will breed a female, 25-30 times, but only one a year
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