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Inside the box or outside?

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Inside the box or outside?

Postby JohnFitzgerald » 04 14, 2013 •  [Post 1]

As not to hijack a different thread, what is your hunting style? Do you use the same old, safe, and proven tactics to hunt elk. Or are you willing to try something new, cutting edge, and unproven.

I always rock the Elk Hunting 3.0 philosophy and enjoy trying new idea's. What about you?
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby JGH » 04 14, 2013 •  [Post 2]

Why do you think I started elk hunting in the first place?

It was new to me!

But, in truth, everything in this game of elk hunting is new to me. That's what I enjoy about it. Sometimes a novice can be "allowed" to be more creative. If I had "tried-and-true" hunting methods, I'd probably use them.

I'm slowly (after years) making the conversion from hunting whitetails from a tree (where "tried-and-true" really shines) to elk hunting, where "aggressive and new" is the name of the game.

When it boils down to "it", what I like about elk hunting is:

1. Planning. I'm a planning-addict. Which is why I'm on this site in the first place. And why I am planning my scouting trips, camping trips, going over gear, etc.

2. The liberty to "swing for the fence". It's "ok" to come home without an elk. Not so much with whitetails. End a season chasing them without shooting and people start to think you're not all that sharp. So, with elk hunting "What do I have to lose?" is a thought that goes through my mind quite a bit.
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby CrazyElkHunter » 04 14, 2013 •  [Post 3]

That's how I got the nickname "CrazyElkHunter". Going after bulls screaming off bluffs and terrain not meant for humans. Always trying something new or doing what has worked in the past. Been doing this for a long time, and elk still throw something new at me I have never heard or seen before. When working a bull, I love it when I turn into what I call becoming the elk, not just a hunter making elk sounds. I think I have done everything but roll in their wallow, but if it might work, I'm in. :o
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby bnsafe » 04 14, 2013 •  [Post 4]

i cant speak to elk cause im new, but i can talk missouri turkeys. when i started there was a set way to hunt and call turkeys. over the years with all the videos and magazines those things changed, and i always pushed the limit on my own anyway. i was the loudest most demanding hen you can imagine, and i killed ALOT of turkeys. over the years and with hunting pressure skyrocketing i starting scaring more turkeys than killing so i went back to the old ways with soft yelps and clucks and sparingly. frankly i dont like it nearly as much as being aggressive, but i started killing turkeys again. so in my experience if your hunting a UN pressured area throw it all in, if your hunting a pressured area better go back to the old ways and that will make you different enough to work.
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby Swede » 04 14, 2013 •  [Post 5]

I guess to answer this question we need a common understanding of what is the "box" and how large is it. To me anyone who reads the Playbook or the tree stand hunting elk book at least are trying to understand the box, and take advantage of what is in it. Personally, I will go a little outside the box, but not a long way either. I do not want to operate on the basis of ignorance. I don't do as some bow hunters, and ride down the road in the back of a pickup bugling as soon as the driver stops. That is too far outside the box for me. I don't roll rocks down the mountain in hopes of scaring out elk that may come my way. That is too far outside the box. I don't sit in my tree stand and bugle back to a bull. I have found that too is outside the box. What I might do is experiment. Jerinmn in the other thread is outside the box. I agree with Elknut that it is good to experiment, but it is also good to know what others have learned so that as we are creative, we are also grounded. We know where the box is. If things work out we can then enlarge the box.
I have been intrigued by scent. I would like to experiment some. If I could, I would like to try working with pheromones. I am also interested in trying some skunk scent mist to see if I could hide behind WW's gunny sack doing some misting with skunk scent while I advance toward a herd or individual and see how close I could get. Maybe someone has tried that, but to me it is outside the box. If it doesn't work I will get back in the box so to speak. I will not waste a lot of time experimenting, and I know for myself when I am experimenting and when I am not. It is really good to know the difference.
I think everyone here that shares elk hunting advise and everyone led to learn and use that advise is either a box maker or user. Most, or all of are probably some of both. For years I had a neighbor who was an outfitter/guide. He finally quit and went back to operating heavy equipment. His biggest peeve was clients who would not follow simple instructions like, "wait here until I get back", or walk up this ridge until you hit the road and wait there". then they complained that they did not get a deer or elk.
I like having the box. I don't always stay in it, but I hate wandering aimlessly. I love knowing that what I am doing works well, and that I did everything I needed to, even if it does not always turn out right. And guess what? Working out of the box nets me at least a 95% success rate in a 10% area.
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby >>>---WW----> » 04 14, 2013 •  [Post 6]

What gives here? Are we all of a sudden hunting boxes instead of elk?

Come on guys! Elknut Forums ( IS) the box! You don't have to think outside of it, inside of it, on top of it, or underneath it. As a matter of fact, a lot of the time you don't even have to think at all. JUST ASK! There are enough years of combined experience here and some of the most knowledgeable elk hunters on the planet right here on this forum. For every guy here with questions, there is probably someone here with an answer.

I've been elk hunting over 35 years and learned most of what I know from the school of hard knocks. Do I know it all? Heck no! That's why I'm here. I want to learn more. And I don't mind helping others with what I have learned in the past.

Even Elknut doesn't know it all ! He is here learning from the rest of us just as we are learning from him. I think we are all elk hunters helping elk hunters. And the Elknut Forum is one box I enjoy being in!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby Lefty » 04 14, 2013 •  [Post 7]

I hunt inside the box in the evenings :lol:
The BLM guys said they werent going to repair it
I fixed the guzzler, repaired the framework, replaced damaged sheet metal repaired the crack in the side of the storage then hauled water , I had elk on it in 7 days. Deer daily and elk when I want in the blind :)
I will hunt this way early season in the evenings a bit closer to home

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I also hunt the wide open desert spot and stalk and I did start calling last year
Lots of miles on the flat and even more glassing
After the burn and a talk with the biologist I might not be hunting any of this region next year, 8/15 or so I will decide if I hunt in the box, or out , in the woods
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IMG_0621 (Small).JPG (44.88 KiB) Viewed 9169 times
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby cnelk » 04 14, 2013 •  [Post 8]

Ok... Ill play

In 2005, I spent the entire archery elk season living in my wall tent chasing elk.
4 weeks of pure bliss... :)

Im going to call that my 'The Box'

Inside that 'box' were other smaller boxes that Im going to refer to how the elk changed over the 4 weeks.
Each week had its own 'box'.

A hunter has to decide what box he wants to hunt and how it pertains to other boxes.
You cant put a bigger box into a smaller one.
And you only have so many boxes.

So.
The trick is to know HOW MANY boxes you have and what the SIZE of each one is.

My boxes may not be the same as 'SWEDE'S' boxes and they prob wont fit.
Even tho WW hunts in the same state I do, his boxes may not fit with mine either, and he prob has more :)

All Im saying is decide how YOU want to hunt, let the elk themselves guide you to your own boxes...

Good Luck
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby JohnFitzgerald » 04 14, 2013 •  [Post 9]

>>>---WW----> wrote:What gives here? Are we all of a sudden hunting boxes instead of elk?

Come on guys! Elknut Forums ( IS) the box! You don't have to think outside of it, inside of it, on top of it, or underneath it. As a matter of fact, a lot of the time you don't even have to think at all. JUST ASK! There are enough years of combined experience here and some of the most knowledgeable elk hunters on the planet right here on this forum. For every guy here with questions, there is probably someone here with an answer.

I've been elk hunting over 35 years and learned most of what I know from the school of hard knocks. Do I know it all? Heck no! That's why I'm here. I want to learn more. And I don't mind helping others with what I have learned in the past.

Even Elknut doesn't know it all ! He is here learning from the rest of us just as we are learning from him. I think we are all elk hunters helping elk hunters. And the Elknut Forum is one box I enjoy being in!!!!!!!!!!


I respectfully disagree with your comment. :-) This thread has nothing to do with knowledge, who has it and who doesn't. Thinking outside the box means are you willing to invent or try new tactics. At some point there was a pioneer that said, "I wonder if sitting 20' up in a tree will give me more of an advantage?". Do you think every single tactic has been fully tested by the veteran hunters here? Until every tactic has been tried by every hunter on this forum, it will never be "the box". I encourage everyone, including new hunters, to think about new idea's and post them on this forum. Maybe they are good maybe not. But everyone inventor has a right to be heard. Why does thinking outside the box seem to be frowned upon....does it takes us out of our comfort zone?
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby co_bowhunter » 04 14, 2013 •  [Post 10]

Interesting and inspiring thread.

A few years back I wasn't have much luck with my calling, spotting and stalking, or sitting on wallows. Nothing was producing elk within my field of view, let alone within 20 yards for my recurve or longbow. In preparation for the next trip out I put all of my normal "calling gear" in a duffle and left it in the truck. I was forcing myself to do something different but I wasn't sure what that "different" was going to be. It turned into some of the most exciting hunting I've had in the last decade.

1. I sloooowed way down and forced myself to cover 100 yards every ten minutes. That's one step, stop, take a breath, and notice how my field of view changed in only one step. I spent an entire day moving that slowly. One of the best parts of the day was spotting a cow's ear flicking a fly almost 200 yards down the slope. The only thing I saw move was her ear. I never would have seen that had I been moving at my normal pace. I saw over 35 elk that day. I was moving so slow I could eat my lunch between heartbeats. :-)

2. I heard elk bugle and cows call but I couldn't respond with my bugle or cow calls as I had left them in the truck intentionally. So I raked trees, used my voice, and had elk come in but non offered any shots.

3. The most exciting thing that happened in two days of hunting without calls was having a bull going crazy with my tree raking but hanging up about 75 yards away. He was wet from sweat, completely fired up. I dug through my pack, looking for something to tempt him to come closer when I spotted my two liter water bottle. I was standing on a big flat rock and the air was still, no wind noise. I raked the tree, listened to him bugle and then when it was quiet I poured that water bottle out onto the flat rock and he went ballistic. In fact, he came in so fast I was afraid he was going to run right over the top of me. He came within 3 feet on a dead run and never offered a shot.

I don't think I would have had those experiences if my bugle and cow calls would have been with me. Maybe I'm not disciplined enough. Who knows. It was one of the greatest elk hunting experiences I've had.
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby horseshoe » 04 14, 2013 •  [Post 11]

Isn't it great to discover a new box and peer inside? You may not like it, but, then again, it may change your life! But how can you know if don't take a peek?
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby JJ Overkill » 04 14, 2013 •  [Post 12]

well john i think you know where im at on the "box". paul and a few others gave me a good foundation. im obviously in the process of finding my own nitch and style based off what ive learned to this point. now its just putting boots to the ground and testing my ability of calling/ tactics.
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby Swede » 04 14, 2013 •  [Post 13]

I enjoyed the story about empting the water bottle on the flat rock. That is a great example of thinking quick to improvise. Others have tried that stunt, but I do not know of anyone getting a bull that way. John F. makes a great point about hanging a stand 20 feet up a tree. The trouble is, I would not think of it as outside the box as it quickly gets incorporated into the box when the technique proves itself.
My point on staying close to the box has been more for newer hunters. Learn and use proven techniques to start with. When I was a young hunter my success was sporadic. I got more elk than average, but I knew it was due solely to hunting longer and harder. There were some older hunters who were consistently successful, but they would not share what they were doing. I do not suspect they were doing anything illegal. Their attitude simply was "I learned on my own and so can you." I have never felt that way. I like to see others being successful and do not feel threatened by that at all. Like many others here, I will give you the best advise I know how.
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby Trophyhill » 04 15, 2013 •  [Post 14]

although i've tried things that are new to me, the tactics i've tried have come from inside someones box. i guess we need to know what's inside the box first before we start thinking outside the box. The PlayBook is a good starting point for us fairly new to killing elk. thanks for the frame work Paul.
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby JohnFitzgerald » 04 15, 2013 •  [Post 15]

Yes, everyone's definition of the "box" will be different. For me, tree stand hunting is outside while for others it's inside. But I'm going to be venturing outside of my comfort zone during opening day and sit 20' up.

My entire point is that we need to support these free thinkers. Let's get out of our comfort zone and nuture some of these idea's instead of forgetting/dismissing them because they don't fit in the "box". Does this mean everyone has to agree, no it doesn't. But just maybe with the 800+ brains working together we can take elk hunting one step further towards success.

Just my 2-cents and my zen moment for the week! :-)
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Re: Inside the box or outside?

Postby elkmtngear » 04 15, 2013 •  [Post 16]

co_bowhunter......Great Post! 8-)

Very good food for thought there!
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