Changing my pack philosphy... tell me about frames!

[eltaco]

To this point, my elk hunting career has been based on me finding a location to hunt where I can setup and use a basecamp. I have purchased all of my gear based on what could be driven to camp and most useful at that location. Basically, I'm the opposite of a minimalistic backpack hunter... to this point. This has actually worked extremely well for me, there are the obvious pros of carrying only a daypack with gear for that day's needs and eating hot meals in the warmth of my 19x19 wall tent after I return for the evening. That said, the flip side of the coin is that I can realistically only get about 4mi from camp as the crow flies before we're taking on 12-14mi roundrip days. I leave camp well before daylight and return well after the sun sets. My days are longer and my boots see more miles with my current mentality.

So here I am, thinking again about what it would take to transform into a backpack hunter. My existing frame gets used only when an elk hits the ground, so I've never considered weight to this point. Basically, my existing frame/pack combo is in the neighborhood of 12#. My lightest tent is around 6#. I'm strongly considering a few of the ultralightweight frame options on the market and already purchased a Flycreek UL2 tent to get this thing kicked off right! I'm looking strongly at the new Kifaru Bikini frame and curious what KUIU's rumored lightweight frame for 2013 is going to look like. Also curious what other items I should be taking a look at. I'd love to hear any input that you guys have to offer!

[dotman]

Sounds like you are headed in the right direction . I would say stick to the Kifaru, 30+ years of pack building behind this product. Let's put it this way, would you take elk calling advice from a new kid on the block over elknut?

Don't get to caught up in the lightest of the lite but just keep track, many things you can do without that you would still have in a camp. I recommend getting a $20 scale and really keeping a tab on your gear and then determine what you can upgrade or what you really need to upgrade, excel spreadsheets are perfect for this. So start a list of what you have and what you think you'll need and then we can help reduce, improve or let you know you have half of all you would ever need.

[dotman]

Now as far as the frame pack, I can't wait to get my bikini. This thing is going to rock! What are your concerns? Since I haven't laid hands on it but have on the other Kifaru packs they are the best I have used. To me the new bikini is kinda like all the packs at Kifaru had one crazy night and 9 months later the best features of them all popped out . It will hardly be noticeable on your back as a day pack, you do not have to run a bag and have so many options to decide on what works for your style.

Kuiu (not my experience) has had some issues with their carbon frames, in 2013 it could be a great frame but who knows since they haven't had one that didn't have issues yet, also the carbon frames will be more fragile. You slip and fall down the mountain the Kifaru will just laugh at you while a carbon frame could be in a million little pieces.

[RockChucker30]

Eltaco,

I posted this in another thread here and I'm sure that folks are going to get tired of hearing me preach, but I've been buying, selling, and trading high end backpacks since 2006 looking for the ultimate pack. To date I've had a Kifaru G1 spike camp, Siwash, G2 LH Guide and Pointman, G2 LH Standard, another G1 Siwash, and a Timberline 1,2, and 3. I've also had a Mystery Ranch Longow and now a Dragon Slayer, and Eberlestock X1 and gunslinger, a Badlands 2200, a Canadian made Arc'Teryx Bora, and more recently a Dana Designs T1 and Sortbed plus a Bozeman made Dana Arcflex Stillwater.

I've got a demo McHale that should be delivered today, but unless it does my dishes for me I'll probably send it back for a refund. The $900 that the McHale costs is dang near another elk hunt!

The pack system I'm probably going to use this year is a modified Kelty Cache Hauler.

I bought one for $95 shipped online and then tested it with 100 lbs of sandbags, and it carries those weights better than any of the expensive packs I've had.

The problem I've had with all those other packs is that I get a lot of belt deformation and slide with more than 70 lbs or so. I believe this is a problem with the three piece belt design of the MR/Dana/Kifaru for my body type.

I'd find a good used or cheap pack that works for you and then put your money into sleeping bag, cook gear, boots, clothes, sleeping pad, etc.

BTW, if you do drop $600 on a new Kifaru pack, the best advice I can give you is to immediately load it with 50 lbs and go for a 3 mile hike. It will probably feel like the pack loves you, like it's an old friend and was made to fit you. That's how they feel with normal loads. Then load it with 100 lbs and do the same 3 mile hike. For me the 100 lb loads have been terrible. If you do this as soon as you get it you can send it back within 30 days and get your money back if it doesn't work for you.

[dotman]

Also remember that rockchucker has had zero packs fit him well . I don't think he has a normal avg body type jk

Both of my Kifaru pack were amazing with 100lbs but of course you feel it, it's 100lbs.

[RockChucker30]

By the way, what kind of frame do you have now that weighs almost 12 lbs? You may be able to modify it a bit and lighten it up.

[eltaco]

Dang it, I just wrote a big long message and don't see it posted... (I don't like this new feature of reviewing new topics before it will accept my post)

I have some concerns with the bikini... namely, nobody has used it yet! It's nearly $400 and I have zero clue how well it holds up, holds weight, feels on my back, etc. I have read that it rides as well as the duplex, and that frame seems to earn high remarks, but it's tough to base my decision solely on a prototype version of what's coming out in April. That said, it's about the same price as the duplex and lighter, to boot.

The KUIU frame doesn't have a lot of feedback, honestly. The 2013 frame is still to be revealed, so there's no info out on it. Still, it's in the same "class" so I'm leaving it on the table until I learn more on it.

Right now I'm using a Cabelas Alaskan Guide frame, which seemed to do the trick on my elk packouts. I'm a slim 160#, so 100lbs+ on my back doesn't feel good no matter what frame I'm wearing. That said, it's the only frame that I have experience with so I can't say whether any of these ultralights are better or worse from my own experience. I'm relying heavily on you guys!

I'm strongly considering running a lightweight frame and maybe a pouch or two for my day pack. I've never worn a rigid frame as a daypack before, so I'm really curious how you guys would compare the ride and comfort level of those two options.

[eltaco]

By the way, what kind of frame do you have now that weighs almost 12 lbs? You may be able to modify it a bit and lighten it up.

Here it is. I've honestly never used the pack, just the frame. Full frame/pack weight is 12lbs, 8oz. I think the frame is about 6.5lbs.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Cabelas- ... l+Products

[RockChucker30]

Also remember that rockchucker has had zero packs fit him

Both of my Kifaru pack were amazing with 100lbs but of course you feel it, it's 100lbs.

That's not exactly true. The Kifaru packs fit great, just don't work with 100 lbs for me. I've had a lot of packs that fit me, but when you change the load from 40 to 100 that weeds a lot of packs out. The Kelty doesn't feel as good as a Kifaru with 40 lbs, but its a thousand times better with more than 70. That's a tradeoff I'll deal with.

[dotman]

The bikini is pretty much the suspension from the ku line, but stiffened up. My ku5200 was my first k pack and sold me on the company. Now I have a very normal back and their composite stays fit me really well 50lbs felt like 25lbs and 100lbs felt like 70lbs. So yes we have not had the bikini in our hands but the suspension is the same as the timberline and ku line of packs, just made in a stiffer configuration that ties the stays together. It is not a new design but an already proven design with a slight mod.

I think the bikini will have some give unlike the duplex.

[eltaco]

Kifaru is actually based right where I live, so I probably have the opportunity to go try them out... but honestly I'm clueless on these things. I'm not sure I could tell you what adjustments I need or dimensions are important to me... but I suppose I could put a load in each and see how they feel.

[dotman]

I would just go to Kifaru after the shot show, can't go wrong that way.

[RockChucker30]

eltaco,

If you tell me your height and waist size I can tell you what length stays and belt you'd need on a K pack. It's not hard.

How does your current pack frame belt work for you under load? Is it comfortable with big weights? If so, I believe you can likely get it down to the 5-6 lb range with a compression setup and a cuben drybag. That would save you about $450-$500.

If your current belt isn't very comfortable then buy a kelty belt and attach it. See if that works. That would be an easy and cheap option.

[eltaco]

I would just go to Kifaru after the shot show, can't go wrong that way.

psst... what's the shot show?

[eltaco]

eltaco,

If you tell me your height and waist size I can tell you what length stays and belt you'd need on a K pack. It's not hard.

How does your current pack frame belt work for you under load? Is it comfortable with big weights? If so, I believe you can likely get it down to the 5-6 lb range with a compression setup and a cuben drybag. That would save you about $450-$500.

If your current belt isn't very comfortable then buy a kelty belt and attach it. See if that works. That would be an easy and cheap option.

Thanks, I appreciate that. I believe I'm 26" stays, not sure on the belt... but I'm only a 32" waist. Height is 6'-1"

I think my current frame held the weight well... but again, I really don't have any basis of comparison. I'm guessing all of your frames held weight well but now that you've tried so many you understand which ones worked better for you and why.

I'm WAY open to options right now. The Kifaru gets high remarks and has my interest, but it's not my only option of interest. I'll look into the Kelty setup and would GREATLY appreciate your comparison of all the options you've tried. I realize everyone has different body shapes, but very few people can give me a good comparison of why one option is better than the others after some serious use.

[dotman]

I would just go to Kifaru after the shot show, can't go wrong that way.

psst... what's the shot show?

It is the biggest firearms outdoor goods show in the world http://www.shotshow.org/

[RockChucker30]

Thanks, I appreciate that. I believe I'm 26" stays, not sure on the belt... but I'm only a 32" waist. Height is 6'-1"

I think my current frame held the weight well... but again, I really don't have any basis of comparison. I'm guessing all of your frames held weight well but now that you've tried so many you understand which ones worked better for you and why.

I'm WAY open to options right now. The Kifaru gets high remarks and has my interest, but it's not my only option of interest. I'll look into the Kelty setup and would GREATLY appreciate your comparison of all the options you've tried. I realize everyone has different body shapes, but very few people can give me a good comparison of why one option is better than the others after some serious use.

eltaco,

26" stays would likely fit you well. You would need a small belt. Do you have any idea if you're a normal, flat, or curvy back? Without a lot of pack experience this can be hard to figure out, but it would help.

After all my packs I've come to realize that only a very few pack design features matter when carrying weight. I would list the most important as belt design and load transfer method, and after that I would say load stability.

On belt design there are really two options:
1. Full wrap with no lumbar pad - this is the belt on the Kelty, your frame, McHale packs, and a lot of externals in general. The Stone Glacier also uses this type belt, but i'm not sure where the load transfer points are.
2. Three piece belt where the long part of the belt passes behind a lumbar pad. Two vertical stays of aluminum or CF/wood laminate (K UL stays) usually terminate behind the lumbar pad.

In my experience the three piece belts are very comfortable with normal loads. Because of the design it is easy to get good contact on the two illiac crests and the lumbar, which are the important areas. The problem is that the entire load transfers to the lumbar, and the lumbar pad itself prevents full contact of the belt to the wearer. In other words, even with the belt tightened as much as possible you can still slip two fingers between your back and the belt on either side of the lumbar pad. This allows for the belt to deform and slip under heavy loads. If you have a curvy lumbar area or a Beyonce' style rear end then this isn't as much of an issue. It's also not as much of an issue on guys who bigger around the waist.

Now, with full wrap belts there are a few things to look out for. Full wraps that transfer the load straight to the lumbar area have a bad rep for comfort. Examples would be the old TNF Back Magic, Arc'Teryx Altra, etc. So, I'm skeptical of full wraps that load transfer to the lumbar. However, the Kelty, old Jansport, McHale and several other packs use full wrap belts that work great, and they all transfer the load to the sides of the belt, under the hips. I think this helps distribute the load equally around the belt and prevents deformation and slip. Also, on a full wrap like the Kelty it stays put better on me because there aren't any gaps between my body and the belt at any place.

Moving on to load stability, that's what the frame does on both internal and external frames. On an internal the vertical load is supported by the two stays which are on either side of the spine. They aren't stiff enough to support the load by themselves, so your body stiffens the flexible stays and in effect makes the stay stronger. An external is pretty simple...it is a solid interface that connects your body to the load.

IME with normal loads internals are more comfortable because they flex and give better freedom of movement. But externals are better with bigger loads because they stabilize the heavy weights better and there isn't any chance of deformation or flex.

Internal vs. External is a tradeoff. Internals are smaller, narrower profile, and sleeker while externals are bigger and a little clunkier, but much better heavy load haulers.

FWIW, a full custom $900 McHale pack is where most guys wind up after MR and Kifaru don't work for them, and he uses an aluminum frame that's kind of like a minimal external that is inside the pack, so it is called an internal frame pack. He also uses a thinly padded full wrap belt with the load transferring at the bottom sides of the belt, under the hips. His packs are viewed by many to be the pinnacle of comfort in big load hauling. I've got a demo that's supposed to be here today for me to try out, but I'm expecting to send it back and then modify the Kelty to suit my needs.

Also, comparing a Kelty to a Dana External.....the Dana is seen by many to be the best external frame ever made, but the three piece belt doesn't work well for me. And I set my kelty next to a Dana Shortbed, and the dimensions on the frame are almost exactly the same. I don't know if Kelty copied it or what?

Also, power pulls, Scherer Cinch, or other mechanical advantage devices are nice for tightening the waistbelt. The power pulls Kifaru uses have got to be licensed from Kelty, as Kelty has a patent on that system.

[eltaco]

Thanks for all of that info!

I just stripped my Cabela's frame down and it's 4.5# without the top bar and meat shelf. So now she's only 2# away from the Kifaru bikini frame. I know 2# can be a lot, but I would only spend the $375 if I could guarantee the comfort is significantly better.

I'm interested in this Kelty belt that you speak of. I can't seem to locate it anywhere. Chances are it would increase the comfort of my current frame and weigh less, to boot.

I'm picking up a Fly Creek UL2 tent and possibly a sleeping pad in just a moment.

[elkmtngear]

eltaco,
I use the Cabelas frame, but use it in a "modular" sense. I pack in with my daypack full of food (plus whatever else fits), and everything else in compression/ dry sacks , lashed to the pack frame. It's amazing how much gear you can fit in a compression sack. You can make a nice, compressed load this way, and you lose the 7 or 8 pound external pack.
It works great, I leave my frame in camp, and hunt with the daypack. The dry bags are great for hoisting food out of bear's reach as well.

[RockChucker30]

Eltaco, Kelty's site says they sell just belts, but I can't find it online.

I'd give them a call. Number is on this link.

http://www.kelty.com/news.aspx?NewsType ... article=85

[eltaco]

Eltaco, Kelty's site says they sell just belts, but I can't find it online.

I'd give them a call. Number is on this link.

http://www.kelty.com/news.aspx?NewsType ... article=85

I'll give it a shot! Very curious if I can even get it to fit my frame... and then curious if it feels considerably better than my current belt.

Thanks for the info. I'll let you know how it turns out!

I did pick up the fly creek UL2 tent and exped synmat UL7 today! Woot!

[RockChucker30]

Measure the width of the side rails on your frame and ill tell you if it should work.

[eltaco]

It measures 14.75" out to out.

How much different is the kelty belt than the one on my cabelas frame? This appears to be a one piece full belt. There is no separate lumbar pad like on the kifaru.

[MTLongdraw]

I'm come downstairs to get on the computer because I can't sleep. Then I just spend a half hour reading about packs. You guys have so much information my mind is about to blow right now. I'll never be able to fall asleep now.

Rock Chucker, so if I understand right you use an external frame (Cache hauler). Do you put a compression sack and just use that or do you have the bag that goes on it too?

I've often thought about just putting my day pack on an external frame/or if doing a spike camp attach a compression sack to it and go in like that. Anybody ever done this? I had a pretty good Cabelas backpacking tent but I bent the aluminum this year when i got it to top heavy. Can you fix that? I bent it back but I'm sure its weakened now. Seems the only time using an external frame would be an issue would be on a rifle hunt. The pack frame is wide enough it always bumps the gun.

[RockChucker30]

Eltaco,

The Kelty frame is 15" so it will work although you may need to drill a couple holes to mount it.

I don't know how different it is from the Alaska frame. I also don't know how much it will cost but I doubt it will be an expensive experiment since the entire frame and all is $100.

MTL,

Last season I used a Kifaru Timberline 1, but traded it when I got home because it didn't carry pack out loads the way I wanted.

I tested the Kelty back to back against a McHale Critical Mass I'm demoing this weekend. I did the same 1.1 mile loop loaded with 103 lbs with each.

The McHale was better than all the packs I've tried except the Kelty, but the Kelty was a couple notches more comfortable. Seeing as there is an $800 difference in price between those two it says a lot IMO.

I've thought about getting a ULA pack to strap onto the frame and then use it as a daypack. Along with a couple of 35L dry bags that would be enough space for a long hunt.

[eltaco]

RockChucker... exactly which Kelty frame are you using? If its a home-build... do you know which belt? I read a bit and it appears they have a few belts depending on which frame or pack it attaches to.

Do you have a picture?

[RockChucker30]

I'm using the Cache Hauler I got from here:

http://www.mountainsports.com/msmain.as ... Frame+only

I haven't started modifying it yet but that will come soon. Btw, site says it weighs 6lbs 1 oz, but mine weighs 5lbs 7 oz full up with the shelf and everything???? I can't believe they would overstate the weight like that. Most pack makers shade it on the low side a bit.

[eltaco]

Man, thanks for all of the info that you've provided thus far.

OK, so I just pulled that frame up... $95, seriously? I wonder if I can find it locally, in either Denver or Salt Lake? I'm going to have a look around.

As for the design, it looks strikingly similar to my Cabelas pack's belt design. It has a little bit different contour, but I think the belt design is the same. I guess I'm starting to question how much better this pack can ride than mine with the same belt design and similar frame design. I won't really know that answer until I try it, but has me a bit puzzled at this point.

On a completely different note, I have a buddy looking at the Badlands OX frame. That frame comes in at 4lbs, 6oz without the pack and looks to be a pretty comfortable setup. I wonder if anyone here has experience with it?

[dotman]

My cabelas has the kelty, think rei might also. At cabelas it is in the backpacking area not hunting. I also believe dicks has it. If you have a backwoods they have it. For some reason that pack always sticks out and I notice it.

[RockChucker30]

Eltaco,

Can you post a pic of the guides belt laid out flat? I'm looking online at it and the contour of the belt looks different. The Kelty has a lazy W shape and is cut differentially top to bottom so bottom is 6" longer. I think that helps with gripping the tops of the hips. Also, where does it load transfer to the belt at? You can put pack on and pull down on frame to figure that out.

Btw, zpacks has a 44L roll top cuben dry bag that weighs 1.8 oz and costs $39. Ill be getting something like that to use in a compression system along with a daypack. A couple of 35L dry bags or one big one would be good.

ULA sells their CDT pack for $135. They say its 3000+ci, will carry 25 lbs, and weighs 21 oz. may not be bad for a daypack tho I'd rather it be comfortable to 40.

With a stripped down Kelty at around 3 lbs (guess), say a pound in buckles and straps (conservative estimate), dry bag, and ULA it would be around 5.5 lbs and around $300 all up. If you've already got a daypack it would be less than $200 all in.

[a3dhunter]

you guys need to keep in mind durability as well.

Just talked to a guy last week about the Kelty cache hauler he has to send in for warranty. While packing an elk out last year it broke in several places.
He is now looking at a Kifaru.

I ran the Kifaru Timberline last season, hauled a couple loads of elk meat without a problem. The pack I have has now seen about 20 pack outs according to the previous owner. Nothing wrong with it and it will pack out more animals next season.
Nothing wrong with picking up a used pack from a proven company and saving yourself a couple hundred bucks IMO.

Rock and I have spoke on pm about this, my experience has been the exact opposite of his. Thus his comment about guys who are "bigger around the waist", since I run about a 40-42" waist.

I had the Kifaru EMR and even though it was 11 lbs dry weight, I could haul 120 lbs on it all day long.
Feels a little different on the T1, but it still does extremely well and collapses down to a nice daypack for me.
My T1 with large belt and aluminum stays is still under 6 lbs.

[RockChucker30]

A3d,

Where did his pack break? Only thing I can imagine breaking is some aluminum pins or the small straps and buckles on the wings. The pins are easily replaceable with bolts, and the stock wings will be replaced by 1 inch webbing and buckles on my pack. I can't see the frame itself failing unless you drive over it.

I still think if Kelty offered multiple belt sizes that your experience would have been different. One size doesn't fit all. That along with advertising the weight a half pound higher than it is is pretty dumb IMO.

[dotman]

Well all I can say is my only kelty pack failed with 20lbs in it, it was only a zipper failure but at the price point of the kelty there is no way they are using the best quality items out and keeping the price so low. For a budget pack it probably is great but I just can't see it as a longterm use item which is why it has a low price IMO. You can add and modify and get a final price of around $300 or buy a Kifaru duplex frame with aluminum stays for $320 and add to it as needed even if it isn't a Kifaru bag or pockets.

[RockChucker30]

Dotman, the Cache Hauler is normally $125. The Cabelas Outfitter frame is $129.99. The Barney's frame is $285, you can pick up a Dana Loadmaster for $150, the LlBean hunters carryall is on sale for $68 shipped, and you can get an old camp trails for $50.

The Kelty is in the ballpark. The straps on the wings are too small, but a very easy workaround is securing a load with paracord or adding better straps.

I had a G2 Kifaru duplex frame for several years. I prefer the Kelty. I'd like to hear your experience with both packs. I'm interested in pack fit and function with different body types.

[dotman]

My kelty isn't the cache hauler, so no experience but I just can't see how they can source quality components into a package that cheap. My kelty pack that had a zipper failure and is really uncomfortable with 50lbs was $189 and doesn't have much more to it though, I have the kid hauler . Soon to toss the kelty suspension and be modified to fit my bikini when it shows up.

Both my T1 and KU Kifaru packs were a million times better in comfort and quality, can't see them stepping up their quality and suspension comfort on the cache hauler so it is probably comparable to the kid hauler which works great to get the kid out on a hike but sucks also.

The torso adjustment isn't adequate and the chest strap easily pops off it's mounting system if overtightened. Belt slips and zippers used for compartments are low grade. Overall my daughter loves it and I hate it

Really the quality just isn't there to compare and the comfort isn't either but at it's price point it is an ok pack. As far as the kid hauler well it is probably the cheapest kid hauler you can buy since at the time I bought it most were priced from $250 - $350.

Next time I see the cache hauler I'll compare the suspension on it to the kid hauler but in no way is it even in the same league as a Kifaru or even Eberlestock in quality. Close to an Eberlestock in comfort.

On the plus side REI replaced it when the zippers failed and no warranty claim had to be made.

[dotman]

Here is a comparison on the suspension for the cache hauler and kid hauler.








I'm not saying this is a horrible pack, it would be a good pack to start out with but for longterm use I just don't see Kelty providing that kind of durability based on the items I have owned from them and their price point.

Fyi... my kid hauler is different then the current model and has a removable suspension from the frame.

[RockChucker30]

Dotman,

I hate to tell you, but there is no similarity whatsoever between that kid hauler suspension and the Cache Hauler. Kid hauler looks like a poorly done full wrap that load transfers to the lumbar, I would suspect the frame is designed to carry a kid, so up to 40 lbs maybe.

- Belt completely different
- Frame completely different
- Load transfer completely different
- Harness completely different - kid hauler doesn't have functional load lifters, CH does

If they were the same you'd be hearing about people carrying quarters in a kid hauler. Comparing that kid hauler to the Cache Hauler is like comparing a zebra to a peanut.

You should check out what some of the guys over on 24hourcampfire say about it.

You ought to try a Cache Hauler out before you dog it, you may be pleasantly suprised. And you may want to try a Duplex out before you say it's better. The Duplex works great for some, but I bet if you tested it back to back with the Cache Hauler you might be shocked by how well the Cache Hauler compares. At $95 it's a cheap experiment. If nothing else you can keep it as a backup or second meat hauler for a buddy.

[eltaco]

Rock,

What are your measurements? I'm curious how closely we compare.

I have that Kelty kid hauler... not a bad pack but yes the weight limit is way lower.

If cabelas has the Kelly cache hauler I might give it a comparison against my cabelas frame... I'm quite curious how they directly compare under load.

[RockChucker30]

Eltaco,

I'm a 34" waist, 6"3". The frames themselves would likely be equal, all they do is support the load. Belts are the important part.

[dotman]

Dotman,

I hate to tell you, but there is no similarity whatsoever between that kid hauler suspension and the Cache Hauler. Kid hauler looks like a poorly done full wrap that load transfers to the lumbar, I would suspect the frame is designed to carry a kid, so up to 40 lbs maybe.

- Belt completely different
- Frame completely different
- Load transfer completely different
- Harness completely different - kid hauler doesn't have functional load lifters, CH does

If they were the same you'd be hearing about people carrying quarters in a kid hauler. Comparing that kid hauler to the Cache Hauler is like comparing a zebra to a peanut.

You should check out what some of the guys over on 24hourcampfire say about it.

You ought to try a Cache Hauler out before you dog it, you may be pleasantly suprised. And you may want to try a Duplex out before you say it's better. The Duplex works great for some, but I bet if you tested it back to back with the Cache Hauler you might be shocked by how well the Cache Hauler compares. At $95 it's a cheap experiment. If nothing else you can keep it as a backup or second meat hauler for a buddy.

Different design and capability yes, sewen in the same shop and same materials used I would bet. I wouldn't use it as a dedicated pack but that is just me and I only have to worry about myself . My above post was more so to state my kelty experience and a high quality product is not what I would say they produce. But that doesn't mean it will not work. Look forward to your write-up on it after this coming season.

I thought about it then remembered my dad has an old flea market frame hauler

[dotman]

I do agree it is a cheap experiment but not one to do when packing meat .

[slim9300]

RockChuckers experience with hip belts is the exact opposite of mine once I figured out how to properly wear my Kifaru pack. (It took a lot of trail and error) I'm 6' 2" and 150-160 lbs. during hunting season (normally 170 in the off season). I have a 21" torso and a 34" waist. I can carry 100 lbs. very comfortably with my T1, and this year I packed 125+ lbs. with it on two long pack outs of the mountains. Both trips my partner and I carried out mature bulls in one trip. The same pack outs with one of my Cabelas AK Outfitter frames or my old Alaska II frame would have been terrible.

I train daily for a few months before the season by carrying 80-85 lbs. for a little over 2 miles with my designated AK Outfitter frame & pack. I use it because I don't like putting unnecessary wear on my Kifaru and if I didn't, it would be collecting dust. When I have carried 100+ lbs. with this pack it always slipped and I continually fought the hip belt and shoulder straps. The opposite has been the case with my Kifaru.

Another point. I will never leave my pack frame at the truck or at base camp ever again. Why not have a pack that is your load hauler and daypack in one, and keep it with you at all times? Anything else seems stupid to me now that I have hunted two seasons like this. I used to carry in a BL Superday with my AK Outfitter frame/pack. I did this because bow hunting with an external frame is useless for me. It's LOUD, awkward and makes me want to drop my pack in every possible situation.

I could go on forever typing but why don't you give me a call sometime soon Jeremy? I would gladly give you the rundown.

[RockChucker30]

Slim, glad the T1 is working for you.

IIRC you had to go with aluminum stays because of a curvy back? Or am I thinking of someone else?

If that's right, then it makes sense. Three piece belts work fine for folks with curvy lumbars or large glutes.

I've got an Outfitter Frame on the way so soon We'll be able to speak the same language on frames.

[slim9300]

Slim, glad the T1 is working for you.

IIRC you had to go with aluminum stays because of a curvy back? Or am I thinking of someone else?

If that's right, then it makes sense. Three piece belts work fine for folks with curvy lumbars or large glutes.

I've got an Outfitter Frame on the way so soon We'll be able to speak the same language on frames.

Sort of. I have a pretty curvy upper back not lumbar area and use the aluminum stays. However, the other day I was showing a new Kifaru owner how to adjust and shoulder his fully loaded pack and due to his torso being a little shorter than mine, the carbon stays felt darn good. The torso adjustment was about 1" from ideal with my aluminum stays (sat about 1" higher than normal), but with the different curve of the carbon, they seemed to be in the exact right spot for once. I may need to play around with the standard carbon stays again.

[RockChucker30]

Slim,

You've got to be pretty tough to fit. A 21" torso on someone your height isn't that common. I'm 6'3" with an 18.5" torso.

I liked the aluminum stays better as well.

[slim9300]

Slim,

You've got to be pretty tough to fit. A 21" torso on someone your height isn't that common. I'm 6'3" with an 18.5" torso.

I liked the aluminum stays better as well.

My 77" reach makes it tough for bows too.

[dotman]

Slim, glad the T1 is working for you.

IIRC you had to go with aluminum stays because of a curvy back? Or am I thinking of someone else?

If that's right, then it makes sense. Three piece belts work fine for folks with curvy lumbars or large glutes.

I've got an Outfitter Frame on the way so soon We'll be able to speak the same language on frames.

Sort of. I have a pretty curvy upper back not lumbar area and use the aluminum stays. However, the other day I was showing a new Kifaru owner how to adjust and shoulder his fully loaded pack and due to his torso being a little shorter than mine, the carbon stays felt darn good. The torso adjustment was about 1" from ideal with my aluminum stays (sat about 1" higher than normal), but with the different curve of the carbon, they seemed to be in the exact right spot for once. I may need to play around with the standard carbon stays again.

Thanks for helping by the way, I hear he really likes it.

[eltaco]

Conlan, I'm moving to SLC on Sunday... should have some free time after that! Shoot me your number again, not sure I still have it!

Thanks for the help, guys. I'm learning a lot thru all of this!

[Vanish]

Conlan, I'm moving to SLC on Sunday... should have some free time after that! Shoot me your number again, not sure I still have it!

Thanks for the help, guys. I'm learning a lot thru all of this!

Well crud, the one person I thought I might meet in the woods / town!

[eltaco]

Conlan, I'm moving to SLC on Sunday... should have some free time after that! Shoot me your number again, not sure I still have it!

Thanks for the help, guys. I'm learning a lot thru all of this!

Well crud, the one person I thought I might meet in the woods / town!

Sorry brother. I fell off the planet after hunting season. I'd love to chat a bit about hunting that area. Sounds like we're pretty close and it'd be cook to compare our findings just to get a better idea how elk are using that whole area

Thanks for the jerky recipe, tho. That has been outstanding!

[pointysticks]

Slim,

You've got to be pretty tough to fit. A 21" torso on someone your height isn't that common. I'm 6'3" with an 18.5" torso.

I liked the aluminum stays better as well.

My 77" reach makes it tough for bows too.

nice. you long guys benefit by eeking out every FPS from bow equipment. not too many bow with a DL longer than 31" right?

[Black Wolf]

After a few years of going light and minimal...I now will not go without my Badlands Ox backpack.

What time and experience has taught me is that packing out an elk is much easier with a frame pack...like daaaaaaaah

I'm 6'1" and 250lbs. and ever since I started calling for friends and family...I've been packing out 4 to 5 elk every archery season...and I'm the one who ends up carring the majority of the meat out.

I've used non-frame packs such as the Badlands 2800 with good results....but the Ox has become my favorite. I've never had 200lbs. of meat and gear feel so comfortable on my back and shoulders as this pack accomodates the weight...if comfortable is even the right term...LOL

Like Vortex's warrenty...Badland's leads the industry with the BEST lifetime warrenty available.

If anyone is looking into a frame pack....definitely check out Badlands Ox pack.

Ray

[slim9300]

After a few years of going light and minimal...I now will not go without my Badlands Ox backpack.

What time and experience has taught me is that packing out an elk is much easier with a frame pack...like daaaaaaaah

I'm 6'1" and 250lbs. and ever since I started calling for friends and family...I've been packing out 4 to 5 elk every archery season...and I'm the one who ends up carring the majority of the meat out.

I've used non-frame packs such as the Badlands 2800 with good results....but the Ox has become my favorite. I've never had 200lbs. of meat and gear feel so comfortable on my back and shoulders as this pack accomodates the weight...if comfortable is even the right term...LOL

Like Vortex's warrenty...Badland's leads the industry with the BEST lifetime warrenty available.

If anyone is looking into a frame pack....definitely check out Badlands Ox pack.

Ray

I would encourage you to try the Kifaru Duplex someday. I think it would suit your needs very well.

[Black Wolf]

I would encourage you to try the Kifaru Duplex someday. I think it would suit your needs very well.

I'm sure the Kifaru packs are great...but the next pack I'd be interested in comparing to my Ox is the Horn Hunter Full Curl pack.

Ray

[slim9300]

I would encourage you to try the Kifaru Duplex someday. I think it would suit your needs very well.

I'm sure the Kifaru packs are great...but the next pack I'd be interested in comparing to my Ox is the Horn Hunter Full Curl pack.

Ray

That would be a good choice too. I'm sure there may be someone local to you with a Duplex to try out for free.

[Black Wolf]

That would be a good choice too. I'm sure there may be someone local to you with a Duplex to try out for free.

That would be cool. Are you suggesting that a dealer would be located near by to try one out for free?

Ray

[slim9300]

That would be a good choice too. I'm sure there may be someone local to you with a Duplex to try out for free.

That would be cool. Are you suggesting that a dealer would be located near by to try one out for free?

Ray

No. The packs are all made to order directly from Kifaru in Wheat Ridge, CO. But the cool thing about a lot of Kifaru owners is that they are happy to show others their packs and give them an opportunity to see why they are the best (IMHO of course). If you ever went on RokSlide.com and created a thread asking to simply check the pack frame out in person, I bet you would find someone close to you that was willing. I have met up with a few people for this exact purpose.

[RockChucker30]

Or, if your pack works for you, save $600 and continue being happy. (Grin)

[Black Wolf]

Or, if your pack works for you, save $600 and continue being happy. (Grin)

I agree

Ray

[RockChucker30]

I got an Outfitter frame in and like the frame a lot. The load lifters are in a better position than on the Kelty, and it has a very substantial feel to it.

I did a mile loaded with 100 lbs last night and the belt isn't as bad as some I've tried but nowhere near as good as the Kelty belt.

The other thing I didn't like was how much extra weight the thing has in order to have the sliding harness adjustment and all that.

Ill put a Kelty belt on it and try it again with weight this weekend. I may try to remove all the extras and replace the harness with a HPG setup too. That should cut a lot of weight.

BTW, I called Kelty and the Cache Hauler belt is $30 with shipping.

[planebow]

Watching close as I have Outfitter frame that needs a new belt

[Hornhunter]

Have you checked hornhunters curl frame or full curl pack system ?

[RockChucker30]

I haven't tried the hornhunter, but have heard some good things about it.

I saw one on fairchasedeals last year for $225 or so and I was tempted, but I had several packs at the time. Of course, I've got 6 right now including frame packs and anything capable of 3+ days. Think I may have a problem........

[dotman]

I haven't tried the hornhunter, but have heard some good things about it.

I saw one on fairchasedeals last year for $225 or so and I was tempted, but I had several packs at the time. Of course, I've got 6 right now including frame packs and anything capable of 3+ days. Think I may have a problem........

That's funny cause as of right now I have zero packs . But come April

[RockChucker30]

I installed a Kelty belt on the Outfitter along with a HPG harness and got the weight down to 3 lbs 15 oz.

I took a mile walk loaded with 100 this morning and the comfort was a lot better.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1359814555.804869.jpg (149.37 KiB) Viewed 43810 times

Then I stripped the Kelty frame down the same way, and it weighs 3 lbs 1 oz. so, I'd probably still take the Kelty frame for a 14 oz weight savings.

[Freebird134]

On a completely different note, I have a buddy looking at the Badlands OX frame. That frame comes in at 4lbs, 6oz without the pack and looks to be a pretty comfortable setup. I wonder if anyone here has experience with it?

We got our for just over $300 delivered to our door. I know the Ox isn't the best pack in the world, but for my needs and price range it's pretty close to the top. I love the fit and (as superficial as it is) I love the look. It's served me well as a day pack (sure a little heavier than most) for deer and backcountry pack for elk. I love being able to just strap stuff to it as needed. It also breaks down nicely for plane travel!

[Sean_TeamNWHunting]

Eltaco: In my opinion, the most important factor for a frame pack is fit. Brand x or y doesn't mean anything unless the pack fits well. I've watched backpack hunters with great name brand packs have trouble staying on the trail and keep their balance traversing obstacles because their pack simply doesn't fit. Go to sports stores that cater to hunters and try on lots of packs. There are great articles in backpacking magazines and websites that do an excellent job of describing how to fit a pack to your particular body style. Good luck with your transition to backpack hunting. It is my preferred method and has produced a lot of hunter success for me over the years.

[Indian Summer]

I know it's fun buying gear. But what do you really need? If you aren't getting into elk in the 4 miles you cover from base camp you need a new spot not a new backpack.

Will you use the pack just for that hike in & packing game? You have a pack and need things that are more important than replacing the Cabelas AK Guide Pack. I am a bonafide gear junkie but all the talk about packs blows my mind. Like a bunch of high school guys talking about their dream car. A year later they are trading it in on another.

The price on packs has become insane like bows. I can carry anything for 4 miles on most any pack including that Alaska Guide model. None are going to make me feel like and olympic athlete if I have 100 lbs+ on it. Hell I've "Santa Claused" (over the shoulder) elk quarters before! So 2 or 3 times a year an elk hunter sucks it up and works like a mule for a couple half days. In some countries they carry that much stuff on top of their head and it seems to work fine. L0L

An internal frame pack will never be the pack mule that an external frame pack will. You can debate all day about that... or you could just listen to the guys from Alaska who carry moose quarters across spongy muskeg or whole sheep and goats down steep slick shale slides.

I'd never dump a bazillion dollars on an internal frame pack... and then start a thread asking about affordable binos & sleeping bags because I wasn't made of money. I'd keep the pack you have or upgrade the external frame to a Barney's Freighter and shop for a day pack if I needed a new one. The Barney's is hands down the tri axle dump truck of backpacks. Buy that and you'll never be shopping again.

My 2 cents.......