Three or Four Fletch?

[WapitiTalk1]

Figured I'd start this umm, discussion up. In my experience, I believe that 4 fletched arrows fly better, particularly at longer distances (40 yards and beyond) than three fletch and, I believe four fletched arrows are a bit more forgiving with a bad release.. What say you? RJ

[cnelk]

remember that the fletching 'steers' your arrow.
of course 4 will fly better than 3 because it is compensating more for any irregularities
but 4 will fly slower as there is more 'drag'

i would bare shaft paper tune your bow prior to just using 4 fletching

just my thoughts

[dotman]

All I know is that I just switched from 3 to 4 and have seen nothing but tighter more consistent groups coming out of my bow. I did some 4 for my brother to try also but don't think he has had an op to shoot them yet. Disclaimer - I also changed broadheads at the same time I switched to 4 so it could be that the entire combination is just better matched to my bow. I didn't bare shaft tune I just hacked off the 3 vanes and refletched with 4 vane.

If 4 does slow down your speed with today's bows it must not reduce it by much because my arrows still get to the target pretty fast

[slim9300]

I switched to 4 Blazers on the advice of Mike Carter (Crackers) a few years back. I will never go back to three fletches again. The improvement in long range accuracy and forgivingness is night and day, especially with fixed blade broadheads.

What prompted you to switch over Rory?

[WapitiTalk1]

I switched to 4 Blazers on the advice of Mike Carter (Crackers) a few years back. I will never go back to three fletches again. The improvement in long range accuracy and forgivingness is night and day, especially with fixed blade broadheads.

What prompted you to switch over Rory?

There you are Was waiting for you to chime in. I shot four fletch for years and years (and years) with fingers out of my older bows. Was definitely more forgiving with bad releases and/or unplanned string torque with fingers. When I started shooting with a release and a faster bow two years ago, my archery shop told me there was no difference at all if your bow was tuned between 3 and 4 fletch. After Slim (Conlan) stopped out and told me I should consider 4 fletch for my Alpine, I gave em a try.. For me, it was a game changer. Here's the deal with me, I don't shoot year around and with all my other hobbies/responsibilites the 4 fletched arrows.. again, seem more forgiving and fly beter at long distances.. Credit is given when credit is due.. It was Slim who prompted me to try em out on my post civil war bow .. I like em.

[dotman]

That's funny Conlan since it was Rory that helped me make the switch

[cnelk]

what is the size of the fletching you are using? height and length?

[ElkNut1]

That's good to know! I've tried both 3 & 4 over the years & couldn't see a big difference! I'll tinker with it again this year. Thanks as this will give me something to do with my arrows!!! (grin)

ElkNut1

[pointysticks]

i wanted to. but didnt.

you guys keeping everything else the same? helical/offset wise?

i talked to my arrow builder guy..Jerry. he said there is significant speed drop with four. the great benefit of four adding more drag to the rear will slow things down. with today's blistering fast bows, maybe this a moot point. more weight out back will also make a shaft seem stiffer spinewise.

either way..i need to buy some arrow building tools and make up a few. i need some anyways to shoot my magnus gobbler killers..(similar to guillotines, i cant remember the name!)..it would be nice to have 4 vanes the same color..no need for cockvane right?

[WapitiTalk1]

what is the size of the fletching you are using? height and length?

Cnelk, they're the little blazer vanes. Not really sure what the height and length are. I'm not a bow expert by any means so I opologize for the vague description. Here's a pic of my Alpine showing the arrows/blazer vanes. They are 4 fletch (black and orange). Arrows are 340 Beman ICS hunters. RJ

[buglmin]

I've built custom arrows for years, owned a pro shop in the 80's and 90's, worked for a pro shop for five years, and played a lot with a Hooter Shooter and different arrow set ups testing arrow flight and arrow penetration at different distances, and cant honestly say that 4 fletch is better then three fletch.
A lot of guys I shoot and travel with for the big 3D touraments are shooting three fletch 3" feathers for speed out of their set ups, and the top Mathews and Hoyt shooters we hunt with still shoot three fletch arrows with AAE 2" vanes.
I learned a long time ago that if you want perfect arrow flight and tight groups at long distance, you need great form and you need to shoot high quality arrows and broadheads.

[Swede]

Years ago I found four fletch helped compensate for an arrow problem I was experiencing. I did not understand much about bow tuning or what made an arrow fly well. Once I learned to tune my bow properly, and made arrows that were right for the job, I never felt the need for four fletch arrows again. I would think if four fletchs gives you better accuracy with broadheads, then by all means use the four.

[>>>---WW---->]

I make my own arrows and have tried just about every configuration of fletching you can think of. However, I have not tried the shorter Blazer type vanes that seem to be so popular today.

But for hunting arrows with broadheads, I feel there is very little difference between 3-4" vanes and 4-4" vanes. The main advantage is that the 75x105 4-4"ers can be loaded up on the string right side up or up side down and still be right.
no cock feather to worry about.

The key to good arrow filght is a well tuned arrow matched up to a well tuned bow.

[POk3s]

I may have to tinker with this as well as it's becoming more and more intriguing. I'm interested because I simply can't get as accurate with my bh's as I am with my field tips. I also know it's my bow and to the best of MY ability, can't get my bow to tune perfect. Closest I could get was a 4" difference in point of impact at 40 yards with my field tips and broadheads. That was good enough after messing with it for a week. I do REALLY like my setup right now however but if 4 fletches can somehow "hide" my error in not finding that perfect area where my bow is SUPPOSED to be....then I'm all for it

[buglmin]

Its not only a tuning issue, but an issue with bow torgue..years ago, a company came out with a sliding bow sight that you could attach a lazer to on top. We used to use this sight/lazer combo to show how guys torqued their bows...it could also be the bow, cam lean, or out of synch cams, and yessir, even on cam and a 1/2 bows, cams can be out of time. Thats why Darton Archery puts timing marks on their cams.
For those that like to tinker, try puting one vane ahead of each other, but not so much as the overall length is over three inches..by staging each vane an offset and then staggering the vane, down range accuracy will improve. The staggering of the vanes help the arrow in flight.
We tune our bows for perfect arrow flight and arrow grouping, bow compound and recurves. But a perfect hole through paper doesnt garentee tight down range arrow grouping. I suggest guys buy the magazine Peterson's Bowhunting, and read what Randy Elmer writes about concerning bow set up and tuning...

[dotman]

I use a bitzenburger Fletcher and did the 4 vane 90* setting straight with blazer vanes, no cock arrow anymore http://www.bitzenburger.com/Products.html

[slim9300]

i wanted to. but didnt.

you guys keeping everything else the same? helical/offset wise?

i talked to my arrow builder guy..Jerry. he said there is significant speed drop with four. the great benefit of four adding more drag to the rear will slow things down. with today's blistering fast bows, maybe this a moot point. more weight out back will also make a shaft seem stiffer spinewise.

either way..i need to buy some arrow building tools and make up a few. i need some anyways to shoot my magnus gobbler killers..(similar to guillotines, i cant remember the name!)..it would be nice to have 4 vanes the same color..no need for cockvane right?

Jerry builds my arrows too. When I compared my old 3-fletched arrows to my current 4-fletch, the difference in pin gaps is basically non-existent from 0-50 yards. At 80 to 100 the difference is a couple inches in the POI. I would say that blows the speed / drag argument out of the water. My guess is that you are looking at a 3-5% reduction in speed at long range and 1% at point blank simply because the added 5-6 grains.

The gain in stability and forgivingness is well worth having to drop my 80 and 100 yard pins a negligible amount in the sight housing.

[Harmy]

Reading these threads amazes me. I never knew just how technical archery is nor just how good of shots many of you are. I am greatly intrigued and the more I read on this site the more likely I will be to break out the wallet and buy a bow (likely soon as the 2013 season may find me with one option to hunt the rut). I find this thread on arrows and speed very interesting as being an Engineer I want to understand this stuff. I am also surprised by the number of comments about speed and the uncertainty you guys are expressing. Why aren't you chronographing your arrows so you know exactly what the differences are? I guess I also don't understand why this matters that much. Isn't consistent velocity and the resulting consistency in ballistics what allows you to achive accuracy through variable range? It is my assumption that all compound bows these days are capable of achieving sufficient velocities to penetrate fully at the ranges you are all speaking of. With guns I have never seen a strict correlation between accuracy and velocity. Some guns and bullets are more accurate at highest velocities and others are more accurate at lower or mid velocites. Isn't the same true with Archery? I assume so. I also assumed that the most critical issues for arrows are ensuring that each arrow is the same weight, is consistently balanced, and fletched exactly the same way (is this what a tuned arrow means?).

[cnelk]

I have tried Blazers vanes (3 fletch). Shot ok. Killed an elk them
I use either feather fletch or vanes now. Both 4 in long. 3/4 high
Killed many elk with both

Feather fletch really fly nice tho.

When I shoot my recurve is when I would use 4 fletch, 5 in long fletching.
Obviously speed and distance are a non- factor for this but Arrow stability is.

In my opinion, a good rest, tuned bow, properly spined arrows, a good BH and proper shooting form are the keys for success

My max distance is 60yds. I don't care about speed.
Speed is nothing but sexy....

[pointysticks]

Jerry builds my arrows too. When I compared my old 3-fletched arrows to my current 4-fletch, the difference in pin gaps is basically non-existent from 0-50 yards. At 80 to 100 the difference is a couple inches in the POI. I would say that blows the speed / drag argument out of the water. My guess is that you are looking at a 3-5% reduction in speed at long range and 1% at point blank simply because the added 5-6 grains.

The gain in stability and forgivingness is well worth having to drop my 80 and 100 yard pins a negligible amount in the sight housing.

you are making me relive my discussion with Jerry. we went round and round. thanks. next time.

[slim9300]

Reading these threads amazes me. I never knew just how technical archery is nor just how good of shots many of you are. I am greatly intrigued and the more I read on this site the more likely I will be to break out the wallet and buy a bow (likely soon as the 2013 season may find me with one option to hunt the rut). I find this thread on arrows and speed very interesting as being an Engineer I want to understand this stuff. I am also surprised by the number of comments about speed and the uncertainty you guys are expressing. Why aren't you chronographing your arrows so you know exactly what the differences are? I guess I also don't understand why this matters that much. Isn't consistent velocity and the resulting consistency in ballistics what allows you to achive accuracy through variable range? It is my assumption that all compound bows these days are capable of achieving sufficient velocities to penetrate fully at the ranges you are all speaking of. With guns I have never seen a strict correlation between accuracy and velocity. Some guns and bullets are more accurate at highest velocities and others are more accurate at lower or mid velocites. Isn't the same true with Archery? I assume so. I also assumed that the most critical issues for arrows are ensuring that each arrow is the same weight, is consistently balanced, and fletched exactly the same way (is this what a tuned arrow means?).

For those drag issue that we are discussing, shooting through a chrono is useless. I actually own one with a light kit too. Try shooting through a chrono at 80 or 100 yards. It's been done but the results have been hit or miss.

There are archery programs that are incredibly accurate at determining all aspects of arrow speed and drop such as OnTarget, amongst others.

[buglmin]

I always shoot my bows through a chronograph at least once a week. When things change, a change in arrow speed will show something is wrong. Plus, I experiement a lot with different arrows, so you always shoot through chronos.
One of the most important things in arrow flight and broadhead accuracy is the arrow shaft. And when you use a shooting machine, you take away all the human error, so what you see is really how the bow/arrow/broadhead combination really works. And for those that sometimes has a flier or you think you made a bad release, it was prolly the arrow. Thats why every arrow/broadhead combo I use is shot several times, and arrows that dont group at 40 yards in left at home. And you and only you can decide what works best for you.
Slo mo video has showed how feathers and vanes lay down in flight, how they flap. That is why the short rigid vane design was developed by Bohning. And for those looking for more arrow drag, look at the vanes by AAE. Set off an offset, these vanes made bad arrows fly better. And no sir, I'm not sponsored by AAE, just know a great product when I see one.

[Swede]

Harmy: I am pleased you are interested in getting involved with bow hunting. Warning: It is a pretty addictive sport. You don't need a lot of fancy equipment, but avoid cheap stuff that is not completely reliable. Get a good bow that fits you well. It needs to be one you can draw without excessive strain. Learn to tune it yourself, and to make arrows that match your bow and your hunting needs. I too have a chronograph, but it is not vital to anything. If my arrows are hitting where they should, then I am not tinkering with my set up. If I have a problem, I don't check with a chronograph. I do have all of the measurements that I check with a measuring tape occasionally. Just my thought.

[cnelk]

a useful tool that can help identify arrow problems that is now available that wasnt when i started bow hunting is the 'Luminok'

some guys use them for hunting, but I mostly use them to determine if the arrow is 'porpoising' or 'kicking'
upon release

remember any useless energy the arrow uses on its path to the target can be detrimental to the penetration/ or grouping

[buglmin]

Really? Dont use a chronograph much? Out of my hunting rig, if I drop 20 grains in arrow weight, how much speed will I gain? Or if I add the weight of a lighted nock and four fletch, how much speed will I loose? If I short my draw lentgh a half inch, how much speed will I loose? If I change releases, am I getting the same speed as my old one? Out of the recurves, how much speed will I loose going from a 480 grain shaft to a 550 grain shaft? All of these things are important, and yessir, I check measurements too, weigh each arrow, weigh each broadhead..all of these things are important to arrow flight and same hole tuning...plus, it helps build confidence when you know your equipment it perfect. Maybe its from too many years as a pro shooter, or maybe its cause I'm always trying new shafts, new heads, but I always play with my equipment, and I'm just as bad with my recurves. Playing with chronographs does help, shows you things you wouldnt notice with just your eyes...plus its just fun to play with.

[Harmy]

Great stuff here. I use a chrono all the time in reloading for my guns. I assumed these were pervasive in archery and many of you have validated that. I just was not seeing any mention of them in the earlier posts and it struck me as odd. I am not surprised at the level of detail and tech you are all applying to this sport, I am simply unaware as I have zero expererience with this sport. I am intrigued. And overwhelmed as I consider all the things I would need to buy to get into this style of hunting. Well, I am a gear head... We will see where this goes but I suspect you will convert me.

[Swede]

Please understand I have no issue with a person using and enjoying their chronogragh. However in a world of expensive equipment which bow hunters need, to be well prepared to take game; I find the chronograph a luxury item. Any good 50 pound bow with a moderate weight arrow and razor sharp broadhead can kill elk with a well placed shot. The critical variable is the well placed shot. Most of the hunters I know are fortunate if they have two dozen arrows and a spare string for their bows. Some hunters do not have that much. It is all ok.
As mentioned on an earlier post, every hunter should have their bow well tuned, but that does not require a chronograph. A few years ago I had a magazine article published, where I used a chronograph to demonstrate the effects on KE due to arrow flight distances and changed arrow weight. That said a 350 grain arrow and a 500 grain arrow will both kill elk if you make a good hit. The heavier arrow will give better penetration, but you don't need a weekly chronograph check up to prove that.
I still remember champian archer Michelle Ragsdale referring to a fellow as "bathtub boy", who placed all of his arrow shafts in a bathtub and used a Sharpie to mark the top side of the floating shafts. Apparently he thought he could shoot better be matching his arrows that way. Target shooters and bow hunters have been using gimicks for years to try to improve on their shots. Like the bathtub trick, or matching fletching weights etc.; the chronograph is not needed to get the job done in the field.
Friend, I mean no offence. My point is to assure those who are short of funds in their hunting budget, they can relax and not worry if they don't have the latest and greatest gadgits including a chronograph Also you don't need to resort to gimmicks to make perfect shots.

[buglmin]

No offense taken sir, I'm just too much of a tech junkie. And I also tell people to always use a good, reliable archery pro shop. Several pro shops will let you shoot different bows, try different arrows, and will offer personal experience when it comes to equipment. A lot of pro shops will lt customers put things on their bows to try before you buy type situations. I used to let customers shoot different broadheads with their field points, and over 80% would end up buying the Muzzy 90 grainer cause they flew so well and shot with their field points.
With the developement of better fall away rests, we are seeing a great improvement in arrow flight, and tighter groups and higher accuracy makes happy happy bowhunters. Plus, in todays world of arrow shafts, we are seing better quality shafts, tighter tolerences, and better shaft material. And yessir, I'm still impressed when I see guys putting 5 arrows in a skoal can lid at 60 yards with broadheads.
All I'm saying is that with todays equipment, no one should ever settle for 'good enough' arrow flight. Almost any bow can be tuned to shoot perfect arrows and tight groups if we only take the time to achieve what we want.
With the economy the way it is, I tell everyone looking for a great bow cheap is to watch ebay or archery shops. Sponsored shooters will be getting their new bows soon, and once they do, they sell last years bows dirt cheap, already set up and ready to go. Me, pesonally, I keep last years bow set up, and shoot often, as a back up to my new bow still sitting in the box...to dang cold, plus lion season is almost here, and we've already found two monster cats...

[cnelk]

Something else to consider is draw weight.
lets say you have 60-70# limbs on your bow.

what do you set it at? Where it comfortable for you to draw?

i also reload my center fire rifle cartridges. how do i know how much powder to use?
the manuals give recommended min & max loads [like your limbs]

it takes several rounds of grouping at the range to determine the exact grain of powder that groups best.

i employ this same method with my draw weight.
sure i can set it anywhere between 60-70# but some point between
i find the sweet spot.

good luck!

[Swede]

Buglemin, you are a good sport and you make a good point. I appreciate an honest discussion on a subject where people are just making their best case for their belief. I believe those who read the pros and con on a matter will be better able to make an informed decision if they are in doubt.

[dapper]

I have made my arrows for thirty years and tried many styles of fletchings and techniques. I have noticed very little difference between four fletch 4" and three fletch 5" when I shoot them. However I'm far from a shooting machine, this is just my feeling on this subject. I most often stick with four fletch simply since I can grab the arrow, nock it and go into action without even thinking about where the cock feather is.


Dan

[Freebird134]

Anyone have thoughts on different angles for 4 fletch? 90 degree seems most common, but I'm a little worried about cable clearance. Any costs or benefits of 60 x 120 fletch or the 75 x 105?

[otcWill]

I just started using 4 fletch, Flex fletch flash vanes and I've been very pleased. Can't say I really noticed a big diff. until I screwed on a BH. Very forgiving and surely improved my longer range BH shooting. As for diff. btw the degree setting on my Blitz, I've not seen much diff.

[Broken arrow]

When I use to use 4 fletch I did my arrows in the 75x105. It's really just2x2 if that makes sense? You get 2 fletches really close together which gives you clearance for the riser ( shooting off the shelf or a flipper style rest) Being I shoot feathers and couldn't see a huge difference except maybe with big zwickey delta broadheads I switched back to 3 fletch to save money. IMHO I think that if you spend the time and tune your bow well, (finger shooters) and work on your release 3 or 4 or 6 fletch is really just preference. Ok well 6 fletch and after 20yds it will be really slowing down! Lol might just bounce of an elk

[Freebird134]

I just fletched up a half dozen of my new Victory VAPs with 4 blazers 90 degrees. Man, there ain't a lot of shaft between vanes on those little arrows!

[slim9300]

I just fletched up a half dozen of my new Victory VAPs with 4 blazers 90 degrees. Man, there ain't a lot of shaft between vanes on those little arrows!

Now go shoot some long bombs with fixed blade BHs and see what they are all about.