A little help with muzzleloader

[Fridaythe13th]

Next year (2016) a group of us are going to Colorado with 4 PP each and give unit 77,78,771 a try with a ML. The only reason we are going to that area is because we hunted 2nd season rifle 6 years ago and kind of know the area.
Background I bought my ML (CVA optima???) 8 year ago for a wedding gift to myself, has to be done, right . I have shot at targets a few time but have never hunted any big game. We are staying in a base camp around 9000 feet

I little help with.

What grain bullet do people recommend?
A place to start at with amount of powder?
Any secret if it's raining to keep the power dry? (or just stay in bed)
Should I shot every night after the day of hunting, to start with fresh powder every morning?
Clean ML every night if I shoot?
Any help to make my hunt successful instead of coming home think I'm never going ML hunting again would be helpful.

Thank You
Eric

[DBLGBL]

Make sure you check the restrictions in the state you are hunting. First, keep in mind a muzzle loader is still a primitive weapon. I think many people feel that with all the advancements in muzzle loaders they are the equivalent of center fire rifles and that can get you in trouble if you are not cautious. Think of your muzzle loader as you would a bow. They require tuning and practice. You would be way ahead to spend a lot of time at the range shooting at different distances. With all that here are some things to start with.

Your gun most likely came with instructions on a starting load and bullet for a reason. Most people shoot saboted bullets if legal. I would start with 250 or 300 grain bullets, I like Horndy but Barnes and TC make good bullets as well. I would go with 300 grain for elk if you can group them in your gun. Triple7 powder or Blackhorn 209. 90 grains of powder by volume is a good place to start and work up from there. Shoot a group with each bullet weight and see what groups best trying different powder and bullet weight combinations. Again, refer to your users manual for guidance. Clean between shots with a damp patch. Most muzzle loaders will shoot two or three times before they become difficult to load. At this point clean barrel and breach plug completely with solvent designed for muzzle loading. I do this after every shot for best consistency.

The newer guns are not as bad for misfires in the rain as the older style guns. If, I hunted in the rain I would shoot the gun at the end of the day and clean and reload for the next.

Practice is your friend! Good Luck!

2gbl

[Elkduds]

From 2015 CO Big Game Regs:

a. Only legal muzzleloaders allowed in muzzleloading seasons.
b. In-line muzzleloaders are legal.
c. Must be a single barrel that fires a single round ball or conical projectile.
d. To hunt deer, pronghorn or bear, they must be minimum of .40 caliber.
e. To hunt elk or moose, they must be minimum of .50 caliber.
f. From .40 caliber to .50 caliber, bullets must weigh a minimum 170 grains.
g. If greater than .50 caliber, bullets must weigh a minimum 210 grains.
h. Shotshell primers and B.O.R. Lock MZ System bullets are legal.
i. Pelletized powder systems prohibited in muzzleloading seasons.
j. Cannot be loaded from the breech in muzzleloading seasons.
k. Only open or iron sights allowed in muzzleloading seasons. Fiber optics and fluorescent paint incorporated into or on open or iron sights are legal. Scopes or any sighting device using artificial light, batteries and electronic gear are prohibited during muzzleloading seasons.
l. Sabots are prohibited in muzzleloading seasons. Cloth patches are not sabots.
m. Smokeless powder prohibited in muzzleloading seasons. Black powder and black-powder substitutes are legal.
n. Electronic or battery-powered devices cannot be incorporated into or attached to muzzleloader during muzzleloading seasons.

Also read the thread below about covering muzzle to exclude moisture, this is more important w MLs than w cartridge guns.

[GobbleFarmer]

I will add that rain may not mess anything up, but better be on the safe side. Every time I have had a nice buck in front of me was with a ML, and every time I shot - the percussion cap would fire but it wouldnt ignite the powder, this was with a side lock ML, I think the problem was that I was bringing it inside after a hunt, and that cold outside to the warm inside caused condensation in the barrel and made the powder a little wet, after many more percussion caps being fired in succession it would finally shoot... This past year I got an inline ML, and I have been careful not to let it get warm/cold quickly, after a week of this I hunted in the rain, and once I got home I decided to see if it would fire with ease, and it did shoot with the first try, but it had a slightly longer than normal delay. I think the very powerful primer( 209 primer vs. no.11 primer ) helped with it. just food for thought. But dont flinch, because the bullet takes longer to get going than one in a centerfire cartridge does.

[CurlyTail]

Grain - I use a 250grain Thor all copper bullet. Contact them and they will send out a sizing sample so you can load them and get the diameter that fits snug but does not have to be hammered home. My gun likes the .501 diamater Ballistic Tip bullets.

Powder - I use 110 grains by volume of Blackhorn 209. There are numerous advantages to using Blackhorn 209. It is legal in Colorado. It is not nearly at dirty and you can shoot several times without having to swab the barrel. It is not nearly as corrosive as black powder, so you do not have to discharge your weapon every evening. You can use your "normal" gun cleaning products that you would use on your shotgun or rifle. The only down side is slighly harder to ignite so they recommend a hot primer like the CCI .209 Magnum primer. The bullet velocities are better than black powder, it stores better and does not attract moisture . Huge advance for the modern muzzleloader. With BH 209 you do not have to be meticulous about cleaning your gun.

[Indian Summer]

They make covers that attach to muzzle loaders to keep your powder dry while hunting.

As far as bullets go for me there is only one choice and that is Powerbelt. Pennsylvania is a huge ML hunting state and the majority of guys are using those. Very accurate and deadly. The plastic tail expands to sit tight in the rifling and they are very accurate. Deadly too. Try different weights to see what your gun shoots best. They make hollow points and ballistic tips.

As far as discharging your gun daily.... get one of the Co2 dischargers. Put the tip in the flash hole and pull the trigger. It blows the bullet and powder out of the gun without leaving powder residue in your barrel. One quick patch down the barrel to remove anything left over and you're ready to go. You only need one and everyone in camp can use it. Here's a link to one at Cabela's: http://www.cabelas.com/ensemble/Shootin ... r/4225.uts

Good luck!

[Fridaythe13th]

Thanks everyone. I loved the run down of the rules elkduds. When I bought my 50 cal CVA I picked up some powerbelts 245 grain and triple 7 powder. I have shot it maybe 10 times and I used 100 g of powder and had a 5" group at 70 yards. This next summer job is to play at the range to zero it in a little better, and to try different rounds and powder. I just was wondering what people used.
Indian Summer I might have a CO2 discharger on my bike to air up a flat tire a great idea.


Rain is still my big worry.
Thank you
Eric

[Old school]

I also shoot a CVA - shoot the Blackhorn 209 powder, many advantages to it. Easier follow up shots, less corrosive are only a couple. I shoot 90 grains by volume. There is also a good muzzleloading forum you might want to check out. Frontier Muzzleloading. Carlos is the expert there when it comes to CVA loads, etc...

-Mitch

[saddlesore]

I have been muzzle loader hunting for elk since 1976. Sidelocks and inlines.I reccomend 348 gr Powerbelt, either the AeroTip or HP. ( I think the 245 gr are a tad light for elk).I have used 295's and 370mgr Maxiballs. (Maxiballs in the sidelocks only)

I went back to Black Powder. I never used the 209 as I can't in my ML. I use 100 gr of FFG. Multiple shots are not big consideration in ML. If you miss,the possibility of another shot is pretty low. With BP I can always get 2nd shot reasonably quick if I need to finish one off, but that is a rarity. The thing is, in ML hunting, you need to be more selective in what shots you take and not rely on the possibility of having to make a 2nd shot. I think the only attribute of being able to shoot 10 shots without cleaning is at the range

I found that keeping 777 or Pyrodex until the next year that it degrades. BP won't.

I keep black electricians tape over my muzzle and if it is really wet, I try to wrap something around the breech as mine is not
a break open action.I don't think you would have much trouble if you had break open action.They are pretty impervious to water. In Colorado,I think it is more important to have good rain gear to keep yourself dry than worrying about your rifle getting wet. It is a lot easier to dry your rifle than yourself. Then again,I don't purposely go out hunting in the rain.

Back in the sidelock days, I do remember a few misfires from moisture, but have never had one on the inlines. I use 209 primers

I don't unload every night. If I have fired the gun that day, I do unload that night and give it a good cleaning. BP, 777,or Pyrodex,you don't want to leave the fouling in the gun For any length of time and I want the first shot out of a clean barrel. Again,I don't know about 209.

The CO2 dischargers were nice for the old sidelocks,but then newer breech plugs makes for easier unloading,especially the 1/4 turn ones.

I don't keep my rifle in the tent,or camper at night.It either goes in the nose of the horse trailer or under a tarp to keep it dry. Big garbage bags are your friend in Colorado's muzzle loader season.

[Old school]

Good points there by Saddlesore. I don't unload or discharge my gun daily either. If you for some reason wanted to or felt the need to, you could remove your 209 primer, take out your breech plug and simply run your ramrod down the barrel and push out the powder and bullet, then there wouldn't be any need for cleaning, etc... Another advantage of the BH 209 powder - not nearly as corrosive as 777, pyrodex, etc... and it stores for a very long time. Also - you don't swab between shots - Fifth or Sixth shot at the range loads as easy as the first. Am considering a Colorado muzzleloader hunt for my boys in the coming years.

--Mitch

[Fridaythe13th]

Thanks again all.

So if my 777 is 9 years old should I throw it away and start over?
I stop at cabelas and purchased 50, 295 grain power belts. It sound like I should switch to buckhorn 209.

[saddlesore]

Definitely throw it away. Start fresh every year..

[Old school]

CVA Accura V2

Thor all copper bullet
Federal brand 209 primer
BH 209 powder

Every brand/gun will prefer a different load. If you read up online I think you will find what the CVA's prefer - that's what I did and they were right.

--Mitch

[dotman]

I hunt the same units.

I use a knight Ultralite with Williams fire sight and Williams wgrs peep.

Load - 300gr thors with 110gr of BH209 with Fed 209A primers. Have had good luck with this load but this year I didn't get complete pass thru. I'm going back to a full lead conical in the No Excuses 465gr as it is a power house and is very accurate. My buddy used the new Federal borlok and it grouped very well with 110gr of BH209 as well but he wasn't successful so not sure how well it will perform.

In 2016 I'll be in the same area the month of Sep rifle hunting bear, tons of them in this area.

[Fridaythe13th]

I hunt the same units.

I use a knight Ultralite with Williams fire sight and Williams wgrs peep.

Load - 300gr thors with 110gr of BH209 with Fed 209A primers. Have had good luck with this load but this year I didn't get complete pass thru. I'm going back to a full lead conical in the No Excuses 465gr as it is a power house and is very accurate. My buddy used the new Federal borlok and it grouped very well with 110gr of BH209 as well but he wasn't successful so not sure how well it will perform.

In 2016 I'll be in the same area the month of Sep rifle hunting bear, tons of them in this area.

Have you had any problem with bear's in your camp?
Can I buy a ML bear tag over-the-counter?
They were pushing bear tags 6 years ago when we were there down at the sport and ski store in Pagosa and we should have bought a tag we seen 2 bear.
The 1st bear we seen, we were following a blood trail from a elk we shot at a long ways away (509 yards I love my 300 ultra mag) and a bear stood up right in front of us not more than 10 yards away talk about your blood flowing and knees shaking, the bears had the same reaction as us and got the h@!! out of there.

[dotman]

Haven't had any in camp problems but I always take the proper precaution, have had one come through camp but it left as quick as it came.

Yes the ML Bear tag is OTC but it is limited to 75 tags and first come first served, it historically has not sold out fast unlike the Bear archery tag that sells out in hours. That said, if you want one I wouldn't drag your feet because anything can happen with a limited OTC type tag.

In parts of the units especially the thick Oak Brush you can find pockets packed with bear. Last year was a poor year for acorns and I only saw 6 bear and tried to chase one down but he was too sneaky. In high acorn years it is nothing to see 4+ bear a day.

Last year they increased the bear tags as they have a big overpopulation problem, with the poor food crop last year a bunch of bear were in and around Pagosa. My parents live there and they get a few in their yard but last year they had a bear a week for awhile.

The Elk hunting in the units is not as good as it was last time you were there, the population est are way overstated imo and many of the locals as well. There are elk there, I got on two really nice sub 300" bulls but I also know about a 25 mile diameter area very well and that makes a huge diff. Plenty of archery hunters every where in these units and last year was the first year I ran into a large number of ML hunters.

Hate to say this but if I had 4pp I wouldn't use them for this unit. Save your points and hunt 2nd or 3rd season rifle or archery hunt elk. ML deer you have a slight chance to draw with zero points. The special Bear rifle there is also a slight chance to d aw with zero points.

In these units I'll only ML hunt deer and bear as the commitment for points is not worth it for elk.

[Old school]

I'll post pics of the buck and the bullet - but here is the bullet (250 grain Barnes) that I recovered from the buck I shot last night at 157 yards with my setup

CVA Accura V2
90 grains of BH 209
250 gr Barnes bullet
Federal Primer

--Mitch